What's the deal with Boat Brokers?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Sailorbob8599

I'm sure a great many are ignorant of the meaning of the term Skipmac, but few of us want to admit our ignorance ... so like you, I too looked it up for those who are just plain curious. Here's what I found: "The Dellenbaugh angle predicts somewhat tenderness/stiffness in small angles of heel not the actual heel" ... there's probably a lot more to it than this, but this is the best I could come up with.
Now unless one is a Naval Architect, I suspect such information is totally meaningless or even useless to the majority of 'pleasure sailors & cruisers' .

Hi Bob,

One definition I found actually gave a formula that would predict the heel based other wind pressure in lbs per sq ft of sail when sheeted flat BUT said very clearly that it was a rough approximation that if I recall was useful mainly to a naval architect when looking at the relative effects of various changes in a hull or sail plan and not an exact calculation or predictor of the actual heel angles in the real world.

Originally Posted by Sailorbob8599

I've never used the services of a broker before now, but I've signed up with one and I'm willing to give him a try, regardless of the negative comments toward such person's on this forum ... wish I knew what to expect?

As much as I want to defend brokers I will be the first to caution you when using one. I saw the business from the inside and knew lots that would gloss over minor defects or talk up a questionable model or design just to get the sale. I even had a boss that threatened to fire me because I told a very green newbie that a boat he was looking at was not appropriate for what he planned. Of course the odds that he would ever actually do what he said (around the Horn and across the Pacific) were close to zero but still.

It was a very open secret that many brokers in Ft Lauderdale used a very large, prestigious surveying firm because they would gloss over all but serious structural problems or equipment in deplorable condition. I on the other hand, found the toughest, meanest surveyor in south Florida if anyone asked for a recommendation. He was one of two at the time that actually climbed the mast and did a rig inspection.

Unfortunately I've been out of the business too long to know anyone to recommend but there are some good guys out there. Maybe another forum member will jump in with a suggestion. Regardless, caveat emptor.

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Guess I will reveal my ignorance when I confess I don't recall ever hearing the term. Had to go look it up.

My guess, this guy was a classic example of someone that had read a lot of books about boating but had little to no experience actually on a boat. See that fairly often on the forum.

Exactly and also a classic time waster.

[KP44]

"If you prefer 'charity' to a 'favor', that's fine, but I was providing my service for free. Do you like 'volunteer work?"


I am very familiar with volunteer work. I worked full-time as a logger and used my real estate brokers license for offices that needed a broker and a broker's supervision. I never received any commissions or compensation, but I insisted they pay for all their office expenses. So that was volunteer work.

I organized and ran an all-volunteer food bank for 30 years.

I was also a foster family and donated $1,000 out of pocket, per month, for 28 years to the care of the teens we parented. (I told the State that was my limit and they would need to reimburse the rest. They usually did.) We took the older teens with violent criminal backgrounds, addictions, and/or severe behaviors. Teens who would otherwise have stayed in group homes. We gave them a safe, nurturing environment with good boundaries where they could rebuild their lives until they transitioned to (usually) successful adult living.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by TJ D

A couple of points. First, didn't you read in one of the earlier posts that real estate agents are just like boat brokers? You make huge money for not doing a damned thing!

As far as listing a boat as a favor, that's exactly what it was. The owner was dead, and I also pointed out in the story that I wasn't going to make a dime on it. What would you call it?

If you prefer 'charity' to a 'favor', that's fine, but I was providing my service for free. Do you like 'volunteer work?'

Any way you slice it, we stood to make no money and still did it. If that's shameful, I don't know what to tell you.

Regarding the 2k vs 5k-well, who knows what something like that is worth. I rather suspect that we could have dropped the price to $500 and would have had the same result. A bunch of dreamers and wannabees happily sending endless requests for nonsense.

I had one guy ask me 'what parts does the boat need?'. He wanted to sail immediately to French Polynesia, by the way. I told him that every system on the boat needed to be checked and most rebuilt. Then he angrily demanded a parts list. How the hell should I know. If everything's suspect-what to do? List every component that's fitted on a boat?

Anyway, I'm out on this one. Carry on with the broker bashing. Nothing's going to change your mind, anyway.

But, the invitation still stands-if you want to reveal your professions, I'll find some bad apples that I've interacted with in your line of work and merrily go on telling the world how dishonest and awful you all are.

I can understand your frustration! Just like in every other profession, there are all types, from stereotypical and unethical "used car salesmen," to extremely knowledgeable and ethical brokers whose good advice can save the buyer many thousands or even from disaster. I think the problem (besides that some people just need to have something to complain about and this week it's apparently yacht brokers turn) is that many buyers don't have any idea what they want or what sort of boat would be suitable for their planned lifestyle aboard, and there is such a wide variety in the product you sell, and there's an equally wide variety of budgets and planned uses and that doesn't even include those buyers who are disconnected from reality. Unlike most other major purchases, many, many people who know nothing about boats decide to spend a pretty large amount of money to buy one and , predictably have buyers remorse and the broker "shoulda told them" even though the broker DID try to tell them but that's long forgotten shortly after the sale.

I think a lot of the problems and misunderstandings could be avoided if more people did their research about what they realistically want to buy BEFORE they ever talk to a broker. Don't expect a broker to teach you all about sailboats, and instead learn all you can online and by reading and window shopping on yachtworld and by bouncing ideas off of other experienced sailors you are friends with or come in contact with, and examining every boat you can come in contact with so you gradually figure out just what sort of boat would work best for you. Rome wasn't built in a day and this process will take quite awhile too. Enjoy the process of learning! Then and only then, I'd start looking seriously on sites like yachtworld to find a boat that I might want to make an offer on and even then I wouldn't hire a broker, not because I dislike or mistrust them but because I'd rather just talk directly to the listing broker myself than to have someone else do it for me. Since I've already done my research, I don't need to pay someone to tell me what I want/need. I will rely on my own judgment and that of the (tough) surveyor that I hire to ensure I get a good boat and a reasonable deal. Another advantage to this approach is that the listing broker won't have to split the commission with "my" broker so is additionally incentivized to work hard to make the deal happen. Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm 3 for 3 in being involved with great brokers for the 3 cruising boats I've purchased. Even years/decades after the sales, I'm still impressed by how helpful they were and thankful I got to work with them and any of them would be welcomed aboard my boat any time they wished.

[Sailorbob8599]

Hey there Skipmac, thanks for your comment re brokers but as I wrote: "I've never used the services of a broker before now, but I've signed up with one and I'm willing to give him a try, regardless of the negative comments toward such person's on this forum ... wish I knew what to expect?"

I'm Canadian, living very close to the 49th and keep my boat in WA State.
The broker I signed up with is licensed to sell on both sides of the border which is a plus in my books and has been in business for number of years. As well, I signed on with him because he is personable, friendly, sounded quite knowledgeable when discussing boats, and appears to be well regarded locally; however, - I just received a memo from him to say he is now fully retired and has sold his business, complete with client list to xxxxxx xxxxx who operates the boat service and repair facility at the marina. Right now, I'm not too sure what to think about this!
As it is now October, I doubt anything will happen sales-wise before spring ... although, stranger things can happen. By that time, the 'broker' I signed up with ... should be back from his winter hide-out in Arizona (or was it Florida?), saying he will be active in the brokerage again on a part time basis. But like any other salesman, I think his efforts will be directed more toward the bigger, easier sales ... but I had to give it a try first.
If it doesn't work out, I'll give it a go myself.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Sailorbob8599

I'm Canadian, living very close to the 49th and keep my boat in WA State.
The broker I signed up with is licensed to sell on both sides of the border
As it is now October, I doubt anything will happen sales-wise before spring ...

I hope the broker didn't tell you he was "licensed" in Canada. There is no such thing as a "licensed" yacht broker in this country.

[Sailorbob8599]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I hope the broker didn't tell you he was "licensed" in Canada. There is no such thing as a "licensed" yacht broker in this country.

Hmmmmm! not sure now if he actually used the term "licensed" but it was a re-insuring term whatever word he used. How does anyone know about who is licensed vs whatever? One cannot do much more than what I did, which was to ask other boat owners in the marina who I knew to have done business through this man's services. All the responses were quite positive causing me to accept he was an AOK guy.
My first disappointment ... and a major one at that ... is the fact he sold the business shortly after I signed his sales contract. At no time was I informed the business was 'on the market' or that another person would be taking over the Boat Sales from him.
All that aside, having done business with the new owner through his service department at the marina, I'm willing to give him an opportunity to show what he might do for me in his new role as a salesman. The time to get really serious will be in the spring; by that time, the original owner whom I contracted to be the exclusive sales agent for my boat should be back from his winter siesta.

[olaf hart]

Last boat we sold a buyer put down a deposit and flew in from interstate for a survey and test sail.

Lot of work for the broker and us, boat passed with flying colours.

It was clear on the test sail he had never owned a boat, and had never sailed.

He bailed after the test sail, the broker advised it was best to just give him back his deposit and forget about him.

We did on condition he gave us the survey report, which was very useful with the eventual buyer.

There are useless buyers as well as brokers, but I have sold and bought boats for fifty years, I do my due diligence on brokers, owners and boats, it has generally worked out fine.

[Sea Frog]

I guess I was just lucky. The broker we bought a boat from, did so much for us, including helping us with getting around when we arrived, referring us to a doctor when we had issue with our child, and even going with me to an insurrance agent when I needed insurance (not counting all the help with the boat storage and arranging lots of other boat-related things). All that for a cheaper boat that they got almost no commission for. Along the way we became good friends and were very sad when we had to leave the marina to start cruising.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

...For you brokers here, why not allow non-brokers to use the popular online tools like Yachtworld? This would divert some low end sellers from using brokers, which would be a good thing for sellers, buyers and brokers.

… or am I missing something?

Nothing? No broker here wants to explain this?

Why is Yachtworld restricted to brokers only? I know for a fact that some low-end sellers seek brokers b/c this is the only way to get listed on this service. It is the most important tool for sellers and buyers.

If brokerages opened this service up to private sellers they’d have fewer low-end clients. As we’ve seen here, brokers can’t really afford to service these low-end boats very well. This produces disgruntled buyers and sellers (as we’ve seen here).

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Nothing? No broker here wants to explain this?

Why is Yachtworld restricted to brokers only? I know for a fact that some low-end sellers seek brokers b/c this is the only way to get listed on this service. It is the most important tool for sellers and buyers.

If brokerages opened this service up to private sellers they’d have fewer low-end clients. As we’ve seen here, brokers can’t really afford to service these low-end boats very well. This produces disgruntled buyers and sellers (as we’ve seen here).

YW is a business. Its money comes from subscription services to the most widely used boat search tool in the world.

If YW opened to individuals, the business model changes:
1. Individual sellers don't use brokers, so the subscription price doesn't have the same value
2. The subscription model would be only optional, since individual sellers can only pay so much to sell one boat
3. The number of transactions to track (invoices, etc.) become astronomical. Defaults (by individuals) have cost in time and money. This is much like the YouTube changes.

I admire YW because their business model is well thought out. There are many tools YW offers to brokers that we browsers cannot see as well.

There are other boat sales websites, and IMHO they all suck for one reason or another. There is a grand opportunity for the innovative entrepreneur to create a YW-like site for individual sellers.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Thalas

I mentioned how to calcualate draw to inform Jd1’s question and give him context. He said he didnt know what a bank was. Never said a broker should calculate draw. I mentioned battery bank amp hours as something any broker should absolutely know. And if the broker didn’t get such basic info before listing then yes... that’s a bad/lazy broker.

“What’s the amp hours on the battery bank?”
“Uh.... lemme check with the owner on that.”

Please...

Just out of curiosity, how many ampere hours is your current bank? I'll even allow for 10% margin of error, when estimating this....

Asking a boat broker how many Ah's the battery bank is, is really a meaningless question because it essentially tells you nothing. Even if he knows the face value rating, it will be a wrong answer anyway. Unless you know the average daily consumption of the vessel under your usage, and the remaining physical Ah capacity of the bank, & perhaps 99.5% + of boat owners don't know this, how would the broker?

It's like asking a used car dealer over the phone; "What does it have for tires?" "It's got four Michelin's." Oh great you think, Michelin's are excellent, only those Michelin's only have 1/64" of tread left when you get the car.

"Ho many Ah's?", "It's a 450Ah bank." Only when you get the boat you discover the battery bank is toast and can barely produce 150Ah's, or its a 450Ah bank of dual-purpose/car starting batteries with 4 years use or two years beyond useless, but hey its a 450Ah bank, says so on the sticker....

Heck even the expensive survey you pay for can't tell you the Ah capacity of your bank. About the best they can do is to tell you if it can start your engine or not...

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

YW is a business. Its money comes from subscription services to the most widely used boat search tool in the world.

If YW opened to individuals, the business model changes:...

Yes, it is the most widely used tool by buyers and brokerage sellers. This is why private sellers want/need access to it. But that’s kinda my point; this becomes a catch-22 for low-end boat sellers. They need access to YW, but the only way in is through a broker who, more than likely (as we’ve discussed here), can’t devote the time needed to service this kind of boat sale. This produces disgruntled potential buyers who must go through these same brokers.

If YW were to open things up to private sellers I suppose the business model would change. I’m not sure why that would have to be a negative for the profitability of YW. Not unless you’re saying by that by keeping all the private sellers out this increases the cost of subscriptions sold to brokers.

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Yes, it is the most widely used tool by buyers and brokerage sellers. This is why private sellers want/need access to it. But that’s kinda my point; this becomes a catch-22 for low-end boat sellers. They need access to YW, but the only way in is through a broker who, more than likely (as we’ve discussed here), can’t devote the time needed to service this kind of boat sale. This produces disgruntled potential buyers who must go through these same brokers.

If YW were to open things up to private sellers I suppose the business model would change. I’m not sure why that would have to be a negative for the profitability of YW. Not unless you’re saying by that by keeping all the private sellers out this increases the cost of subscriptions sold to brokers.

As stated, YW is a subscription service open to brokerages but with rules. For example, a brokerage must show at least 3 verifiable central listings in order to join. Once on YW brokers can advertise "open" listings and many do.

Right know it costs $500/month and up for a brokerage to be on YW. It's not cheap.

If YW was opened to all it wouldn't just be the cheap boat owners who would go on. In that case the value of YW to brokers would decrease and they would want reduced rates.

YW is doing fine and so this is a box that they don't need to open.

Isn't Craig's List a good source to sell cheap boats? Do many people travel to buy cheap boats and transport them home?

How about boattraderonline.com?

[shadow]

Capn Jimbo You must be my unofficial twin!! We seem to have had the same journey in the life of boat searching and purchasing!!

Loved your post!!!!

I had one broker totally mis-represent this boat. He claimed that it was "enroute" to a place where I had family and would meet it there.. Then as I pushed harder, it was on the hard and tied down in the Carribean with not intention of leaving.. It had already done it's holiday run with the owners. We should really be allowed to sue them for false advertising or something.. Just annoys me especially when it is silly needless nonsense stuff too..