Why is this schooner so cheap?

[Jim Cate]

Beyond the ferro issue, I note that the vessel really has no functional cockpit... no where to lounge about in comfort on deck, at sea or on her mooring. The interior seems very cluttered and crowded, albeit nicely finished. The little workshop area is a plus for a serious cruiser, but I don't see easy engine access. The lack of an engine hour figure is worrying, too.

One also wonders if the photos are recent...

These are only some of the factors that influence the value of the yacht, other posters have mentioned others. As for me, I'd not buy her at any price!

Jim

[MicHughV]

As a retired structural marine engineer, I can tell you that getting a ferrocement boat just right, is no easy task, as there are many variables involved that need to be spot on, but a few comments I noted about the boat seemed to indicate that great care was taken during the build to get this right.
Nonetheless, it is a material that is not very forgiving, especially so, for someone that has no experience with this material.
Ferro boats have seen their day though, and I'd be moving on, were it me.

[TrentePieds]

As Bowdrie noted: Cece Norris was the designer for an outfit called Samson Marine Enterprises Ltd. which was located in Richmond BC, a Vancouver suburb at the mouth of the Fraser River.

Cece, like SMEL, has quite dropped off the radar. The all-knowing Ms. Google, and therefore I, cannot find any trace of Cece on HolyMotherNet.

Many of you will recall that back in the days when the slogan "Turn on, Tune in, Drop out" was on the lips of vast numbers of members of my age cohort, America, and in consequence Canada, was swept by one of those inexplicable periodic enthusiasms that seem to find such fertile ground south of 49ºN, viz that every man-jack had to be a sailorman. Maritime tradition be damned!

Well, John Walter Samson, two years my senior, who was actually what we west-coasters are apt to call a “prairie chicken”, rode that enthusiasm to modest, if temporary, success, by founding the above-mentioned business.

The purpose of SMEL was to sell to the naive, i.e. those with lots of enthusiasm but little knowledge of matters nautical, on the concept that building the hull for a HUGE yacht was not only so easy that any 97-pound weakling could do it, but also that it was INCREDIBLY cheap, i.e. within the financial reach of any hippie dropout.

In consequence there were, well into the 1980s, abandoned “LaFarge Barge” projects sitting on the banks of the Mighty, Muddy Fraser.

I have been aboard a few that were actually afloat, all of them bearing the marks of having been hurriedly and hap-hazardly completed. One was rigged with hempen rope. Another was a knock-off of Arthur Robb's incomparable Renown. The choice was between crying and laughing. There being others present, I chose to laugh as politely as I could. I think the boat that started this discussion may be a knock-off of Colin Mudie's Mahanui.

That would fit. Cece Norris' claim to fame was knocking out “romantic” designs meant to be sold into what I call a “market of ignorance”. Refer to the dozen or more designs bearing such names a “C-Lord” and “C-Deuce”. C-Deuce??? Ahem. Allus thot that was a little too close to the mark :-)!

John Samson was in old age resident in the little town of Ladysmith on the east coast of Vancouver Island, where TrentePieds is now home-ported. He shipped out for Fiddler's Green in 2009.

Cece Norris? Who knows? But, in fairness, I should say that AFAIK he had done SOME time at the Westlawn School of Yacht Design, back when the tuition fees at that august institution were within the reach of Cece and me. So he was not completely clueless. I don't know if he ever completed his studies there. It matters no longer, since we are long past the era of the Mom'n'Pop shipyards that employed yacht designers from the lower rungs of the professional ladder :-)

Best

TrentePieds

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by cqllysto

Why is it so cheap? I was under the impression that schooners are a much higher end rig style that you usually can't find for less than 150k. Is it because it's steel and not fibreglass? Does that make such a huge difference?

* It was built in 1981, the sails were last replaced in 2001, and there is no indication that the boat has ever had a major refit. As such, it likely needs replacement or rebuilding of all major components such as: sails, standing rigging, running rigging, engine, transmission, winches, etc.
* It is likely uninsurable due to its age and the ferrocement construction.
* Due to its size and construction it is not an inexpensive boat to maintain and therefore will only appeal to individuals of means. Such individuals are typically drawn to more practical choices that cost more up front and cost less to maintain, typically newer catamarans.



Recently a wood 42' ketch was up for sale near me. Following plans penned by Ted Brewer, it was built by its owner in 1994, sailed around the world, and carefully stored indoors when its owner/builder was too old to sail. He wrote a book about the construction and his voyages. It was originally listed for sale for over $100,000 and the price gradually reduced over a period of years. I last saw it listed on yw for around $20,000 about a year ago. The photos looked lovely but were taken some time ago and word was that the boat was in need of a substantial refit. I don't know what happened to it.

[MicHughV]

Buying a boat...any boat...is the easy part....

Trying to sell it a few years down the line....not so easy at all.

[Iron E]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Recently a wood 42' ketch was up for sale near me. Following plans penned by Ted Brewer, it was built by its owner in 1994, sailed around the world, and carefully stored indoors when its owner/builder was too old to sail. He wrote a book about the construction and his voyages. It was originally listed for sale for over $100,000 and the price gradually reduced over a period of years. I last saw it listed on yw for around $20,000 about a year ago. The photos looked lovely but were taken some time ago and word was that the boat was in need of a substantial refit. I don't know what happened to it.

A few years back we looked at a vintage 38ft wooden boat that had a freestanding mast (Freestanding Schooner). This was the biggest 38ft boat we've ever seen... a beauty.
It was listed for something like 80k-90k. a year later it was 23k.
Turns out all hull planking and screws were deteriorated. Photos of the hull looked great. The boat needed a professional surveyor to look.
$1500 saved someone a headache... but still

[Calif.Ted]

I know of a beautiful 36' wood Sea Witch Ketch a friend used to own, it really is gorgeous to this day. Maintenance, Insurance costs and requirement for annual survey have made it a very hard sale.
Couple years ago asking was $199,000 and now it is $125,000.
https://heritech.com/seawitch/seaforth.htm
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/196...ketch-8227272/

[MicHughV]

Yachtworld is filled to the brim with sailboat listings that have been there for years.
Most boat owners initially ask ridiculous prices for their craft only to see their boats languish in obscurity alongside many others.
With my own boat, the seller had to bring money to the table to get out from under a burdensome boat mortgage. It was sad to see, as he had to stroke a substantial check.

But such is the allure of boats, that common sense is the first thing to get thrown out of the water at the time of purchase.

There should be a sign attached to each listed boat..." falling in love with this boat will be detrimental to your health and bank account"

[CSY Man]

I have been aboard a few that were actually afloat, all of them bearing the marks of having been hurriedly and hap-hazardly completed. One was rigged with hempen rope. Another was a knock-off of Arthur Robb's incomparable Renown. The choice was between crying and laughing. There being others present, I chose to laugh as politely as I could. I think the boat that started this discussion may be a knock-off of Colin Mudie's Mahanui.

Here is another Canadian Ferro cement boat for your viewing pleasure:

[boatpoker]

Did you notice all the corrosion staining under the engine (the parts without fresh paint) ? Why are there no photos of the running gear, the stuffing box, transmission, motor mounts, electrical system, house bank, water tankage, fuel tanks, waste tanks, propane storage system ? ... Ya know, the important stuff.

She is listed as being in Toronto yet most of the photos do not show anywhere near Toronto so how old are those photos ? By the colour of the various metals on the exterior she has clearly seen much salt water service.

Wait til' next year and buy it for 5k then plant it in the ground north of Toronto and make a cottage out of it.

[cram]

Getting insurance might be a challenge..... with Marinas now requiring 2 000 000 liability, you could be stuck at anchor forever.

[pbmaise]

I used to sail on a ferrocement vessel. Construction specs on this one look good.

"The Portland was a special saltwater proof cement manufactured by St. Lawrence Cement Company to Type #5 specs, containing volcanic fly ash."

Combining the volcanic fly ash is supposed to increase the ability of the concrete to self-heal. This helps prevent water from reaching the reinforcing steel.

Provided this vessel is painted on a regular basis and through hull fittings are attended to...it should remain floating for decades more.

The downside on this vessel is people like shade and protection from the elements. Given the height of the booms it appears to have room for a bimini and/or a pilot house. Of course that is going to cost.

[moseriw]

Looks like a steel hull. The problem is that nobody knows how good the hull is. It might be rotten from the inside. Thant means the new owner has to remove everything that is inside to repair the corroded remains. Therefore nobody wants to buy a steel hull.

These can be the best hulls ever but it depends how they have been painted and serviced. No one is able to verify the current condition. Maybe a specialized surveyor.

[cdy]

One of the nicest boats I have been on was ferro - but built in Maine by a master carpenter who knew it inside and out - they come up for sale on occasion in Florida - sometimes they look decent - but you would have to get it at a real bargain price to take a chance - and expect to anchor out - some marinas won't allow a ferro boat in - bad reputation from owners docking boat and disappearing. This particular boat is just too big - the upkeep would kill you - even at free would not be worth it

I once bough a homemade Benford 34 schooner - built out of plywood and covered with epoxy - cool boat - owner originally wanted $35K - I bought it for $8K - loaded with equipment but nobody wanted to take a chance on a ply boat - only buy these one-off types if you can afford to give it away for free in worst circumstance - there is just not much of a market for them

[jalmberg]

As you can tell by the replies thus far, most people are not interested in any boat that deviates from the norm. Wood, steel, ferro, are all too risky for most folk. They use catch phrases like 'rust never sleeps' and leave it like that.

Having owned fiberglass, wood, and steel boats myself, I can say they all have their problems. The beauty of wood and steel boats is they are relatively easy to repair, particularly steel. The beauty of fiberglass is you can neglect them for many years without doing too much damage.

However, buy a fiberglass boat with a rotted deck core (because several owners didn't bother to re-bed deck hardware for decades -- hey, maintenance is a drag!) and you will have a real problem on your hands.

Wood and steel boat owners know they have to keep up their boats, so are more likely to do so. And the results if they don't aren't hidden from view by shiny plastic. Rust and dry rot are easy to find (though not necessarily deal-killers, if you know what you are looking at.)

I don't know much about ferro, but I would say that a boat that's been around for 40+ years is probably good for another few decades, as long as it's in decent shape. You just need to educate yourself on how to inspect such a boat. Surveyors are useless, in my opinion, except for ticking the boxes on insurance forms, so you would want to be able to do this yourself. If that sounds like too much work, stick to plastic!

I see it's already been bought, so someone probably snatched a good boat off the market.

One last word: if you are a non-sailor, you should definitely NOT be looking at 50' boats! If you want the advice of a 70 year old who's been sailing for nearly as long, crossed the Atlantic, etc., start looking at 18' boats, instead. They are better to learn on, and easy to sell when you are ready to move up.

Good luck!


-- John