Would like to hire some one to write a sailing article

[DanCan]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

The analogy is that today's technology can often (but not always) compensate well enough for lack of skills. Even on this forum what is the real % of cruisers today who can get from NYC to Lisbon without any electronic gadgets on board, incl. modern watches? Say as 18th c sailors have done.

Another example - wedding photography. Used to be very difficult to take good pictures (not just wedding pictures) with then cheap 110 cameras. Fast forward to today - latest I-phone or Android has more pro-camera features than a 20-30 year old Hasselblad. And that allows your average person with a good eye and good knowledge of their phone's features to take decent enough photos, instead of paying thousands to a "pro".

This is no different than painting. Some paint for fun. Others for therapy. Still others just for the money and work in advertising. Some are artists, others house painters. Imagine an illustrator for an ad agency complaining that some amateur painter selling his doodles for 10X less than the ad aguy is getting for his.

Funny how many who are otherwise conservative or libertarian in their world outlook become very protectionist and unionizing when it comes to their perceived potential loss of income.

Both examples you provide are examples of “mechanical” skills, and as such, skills that heavily rely on technology. But you still have professional photographers because that skill requires way more than a good camera. That’s why is a profession. It goes along with design and artistic capabilities that a common person with an Apple x cannot achieve. But still, mechanical skills.
Writing is not the same. You need research, very good command of the language, you need talent and a “gift” to catch the readers attention. And in technical matters, you need expertise. That’s why in previous message I congratulated Mr. DAntonio, for example (among many other good article writers). Your regular joe DOES NOT have his skills, no matter how much technology has.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by DanCan

Both examples you provide are examples of “mechanical” skills, and as such, skills that heavily rely on technology. But you still have professional photographers because that skill requires way more than a good camera. That’s why is a profession. It goes along with design and artistic capabilities that a common person with an Apple x cannot achieve. But still, mechanical skills.
Writing is not the same. You need research, very good command of the language, you need talent and a “gift” to catch the readers attention. And in technical matters, you need expertise. That’s why in previous message I congratulated Mr. DAntonio, for example (among many other good article writers). Your regular joe DOES NOT have his skills, no matter how much technology has.

I am not arguing against the role of a professional in any endeavor. All I am saying is that for many tasks today lack of professionalism can be compensated by technology. And not just mechanical aspects. Research today can produce better results then your, mine or anyone else's experience can. Plus don't forget the target audience. They may not appreciate the difference bewteen a seasoned writer with experience writing for $500-1,000 and a sailor-blogger amateur writing for $50.

[DanCan]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

I am not arguing against the role of a professional in any endeavor. All I am saying is that for many tasks today lack of professionalism can be compensated by technology. And not just mechanical aspects. Research today can produce better results then your, mine or anyone else's experience can. Plus don't forget the target audience. They may not appreciate the difference bewteen a seasoned writer with experience writing for $500-1,000 and a sailor-blogger amateur writing for $50.

Agree on target audience. Cheap is not just the producer but also the consumer. Example with Chinese products. Not that the Chinese are crappy producers necessarily, but consumers demand cheap so they get what they want. People consuming cheap “articles” will swallow any crap out there and then argue they are smart.

[Steve DAntonio]

Originally Posted by DanCan

Is this supposed to be an analogy?
Anyone with bear minimum skills and a drivers license can drive. That is why Uber or Lift spread out. Taxi drivers don’t have any more skills than any regular joe, they only have (had?) an expensive license. And you may even have the opposite, very licensed cab drivers with awful skills while “unlicensed” Uber with good skills. I’ve taken enough Lift to realize they, like anyone else, are good, bad and ugly depending on the driver.
Writers? It takes skills. Yes, you can ask your 15y/o nephew to write something or your next door college neighbour. I can write a good grocery list ) but skills? Well researched article? Meaningful? That brings expertise and knowledge? Very,very few. And asking them to write to that standard is expensive (or it should be).
Am I getting your analogy right?

Well-said, and I'd add one other criteria, experience. In all the years I've been writing I've worked with many magazine staff writers who could write very well, however, their experience was limited, especially from a technical perspective. They could research their way through any subject, and the resulting article would often included quotes from various experts, which were often conflicting or at least not aligned, leaving the reader confused as to the best course of action, and the author could rarely say, "Here's what you need to do" because he or she had never done it. I'm not denigrating those authors, they take the assignments they are given, it's the editor and/or publisher who makes that call.

Boat reviews in particular are a sore spot for me, most reviews are written by those who know very little about boat building and thus can offer little in the way of constructive criticism in that realm, even if the editor would allow it to be published. As others have noted most are of little value, but that's a subject for another thread.

[Sailingsoon1959]

Can I get your email I have written a few short stories you may like?

[DanCan]

Originally Posted by Steve DAntonio

Well-said, and I'd add one other criteria, experience. In all the years I've been writing I've worked with many magazine staff writers who could write very well, however, their experience was limited, especially from a technical perspective. They could research their way through any subject, and the resulting article would often included quotes from various experts, which were often conflicting or at least not aligned, leaving the reader confused as to the best course of action, and the author could rarely say, "Here's what you need to do" because he or she had never done it. I'm not denigrating those authors, they take the assignments they are given, it's the editor and/or publisher who makes that call.



Boat reviews in particular are a sore spot for me, most reviews are written by those who know very little about boat building and thus can offer little in the way of constructive criticism in that realm, even if the editor would allow it to be published. As others have noted most are of little value, but that's a subject for another thread.

Exactly.
Without being too rude, I’ll assume many here offering their writings are offering to write their stories. And Mike was asking why? Because writing their stories and sharing them is for most “cool”. Nothing wrong with that I suppose. Plus the byline factor.
But when I access a webpage or article, particularly about boats, I need expertise and experience. I need to learn and have enough professional data to make my informed decisions. Those are the authors I respect. Those are the authors I need.
The rest is just YouTube sharing cool stories. I get enough of those from YouTube (and they are more interesting because they are videos

[Sailingsoon1959]

Interested please email me

[Paul Annapolis]

Writer-sailor or sailor-writer? Both! As a professional master captain equipped with a masters degree in journalism, I have decades of experience in each field, tens of thousands of miles underway and tens of thousands of words published in newspapers, magazines and books. Experience counts. There is a difference between professionals and amateurs in every field. What most pleases me here in this thread is that many are coming to the defense of writers, asserting that professional writers deserve professional status and pay. I agree and appreciate that. Some disagree.

Now compare that to how many examples we see on this forum where many pooh-pooh the necessity of hiring professionals in the marine service industry, notable captain, coaches, consultants etc. Listen to what Steve D'Antonio writes and see not only that he is an expert marine service provider, but also an excellent writer. I cannot recount the number of times I have seen in this forum, and in direct conversation with prospective clients and a wide range of boaters who think that safe boating is simple.

"Wow--that much to hire you?" they ask. Or they say "I have a buddy with a boat and he's going to give me some tips" or someone asks "I took a class and just bought a 1975 XYZ and need to sail it from A to B. I found a guy who will do it for $50 less a day so I'll hire him." OK....

"Can I do it alone or do I need to hire someone?" and everyone then starts an online debate, with many saying "Oh you don't need a pro, just learn it yourself" and such things. On this forum! All the time! So I would like to know why the same standard that I seem to be reading here about the need to hire a professional writer and pay that person a professional wage is not similarly applied to getting your boat safely from A to B? To learning how to do it the right way? Of learning from the experience of a professional instead of relying on "a guy I met over a drink at the yacht club" etc etc? There are reasons why professionals are desirable, are preferred over amateurs, and why cheaper is not always better. In fact, cheaper can often be more expensive.

My goal as a writer is to take my time and energy and skills to make it worth my reader's time to read what I wrote and my publisher's money to pay me for it. My job as a captain and trainer and consultant is to apply my time and energy and skills to make it worth my client's time and expense.

As a captain and trainer, I save my boating client's time, money and hassle--and the knowledge and training have I provided them has saved them from injury, insurance claims and possibly even death. It is even more critical than writing, but both are valuable skills that deserve value in return. So thanks for coming to the defense of paying writers. Please keep this in mind when advising others that when it comes to buying a boat, owning a boat, maintaining a running a boat etc. etc that the same standards should apply--even more critically! Thank you.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by DanCan

Agree on target audience. Cheap is not just the producer but also the consumer. Example with Chinese products. Not that the Chinese are crappy producers necessarily, but consumers demand cheap so they get what they want. People consuming cheap “articles” will swallow any crap out there and then argue they are smart.

That's what drives the demand for cheap writing. Zillions of online mags and sites are mostly free. So their budget for content is just above a few miserly bucks if that much. Unlike paper mags which rely mostly on ad dollars they just can't pay what the paper mags pay. But they still want some content. I don't see $50 writers competing with $750 ones as the paper mags editors probably see the difference. No disrespect meant to CF budding authors.

[DanCan]

Originally Posted by Paul Annapolis

Writer-sailor or sailor-writer? Both! As a professional master captain equipped with a masters degree in journalism, I have decades of experience in each field, tens of thousands of miles underway and tens of thousands of words published in newspapers, magazines and books. Experience counts. There is a difference between professionals and amateurs in every field. What most pleases me here in this thread is that many are coming to the defense of writers, asserting that professional writers deserve professional status and pay. I agree and appreciate that. Some disagree.

Now compare that to how many examples we see on this forum where many pooh-pooh the necessity of hiring professionals in the marine service industry, notable captain, coaches, consultants etc. Listen to what Steve D'Antonio writes and see not only that he is an expert marine service provider, but also an excellent writer. I cannot recount the number of times I have seen in this forum, and in direct conversation with prospective clients and a wide range of boaters who think that safe boating is simple.

"Wow--that much to hire you?" they ask. Or they say "I have a buddy with a boat and he's going to give me some tips" or someone asks "I took a class and just bought a 1975 XYZ and need to sail it from A to B. I found a guy who will do it for $50 less a day so I'll hire him." OK....

"Can I do it alone or do I need to hire someone?" and everyone then starts an online debate, with many saying "Oh you don't need a pro, just learn it yourself" and such things. On this forum! All the time! So I would like to know why the same standard that I seem to be reading here about the need to hire a professional writer and pay that person a professional wage is not similarly applied to getting your boat safely from A to B? To learning how to do it the right way? Of learning from the experience of a professional instead of relying on "a guy I met over a drink at the yacht club" etc etc? There are reasons why professionals are desirable, are preferred over amateurs, and why cheaper is not always better. In fact, cheaper can often be more expensive.

My goal as a writer is to take my time and energy and skills to make it worth my reader's time to read what I wrote and my publisher's money to pay me for it. My job as a captain and trainer and consultant is to apply my time and energy and skills to make it worth my client's time and expense.

As a captain and trainer, I save my boating client's time, money and hassle--and the knowledge and training have I provided them has saved them from injury, insurance claims and possibly even death. It is even more critical than writing, but both are valuable skills that deserve value in return. So thanks for coming to the defense of paying writers. Please keep this in mind when advising others that when it comes to buying a boat, owning a boat, maintaining a running a boat etc. etc that the same standards should apply--even more critically! Thank you.

Excellent points captain, that is the expertise cheap “articles” and cheap “consultants” won’t ever bring. Totally agree with you! Cheers.

[DanCan]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

That's what drives the demand for cheap writing. Zillions of online mags and sites are mostly free. So their budget for content is just above a few miserly bucks if that much. Unlike paper mags which rely mostly on ad dollars they just can't pay what the paper mags pay. But they still want some content. I don't see $50 writers competing with $750 ones as the paper mags editors probably see the difference. No disrespect meant to CF budding authors.

Well, in my view, supply and demand will determine what is worth, eventually. Cheap advise is, of course, cheap and irrelevant. Less and less people buy paper mags, even the old classical mags have become an online thing, mostly full of ads relevant for deep pockets (expensive boats and expensive lifestyle that is not mine). So, I guess, some folks will write cool stories and some will read them, but I highly doubt their quality will be higher than most YouTube channels.

[Buzzman]

Three cents a word...???? Tell 'em their dreaming!

No professional writer worth their salt would accept anything less than around 30c a word, or approx $300/1000wds.

Reductive logic determines anyone so accepting is ergo non-professional, and by further deductive logic, not worth reading.

High-skilled amateurs notwithstanding, hope they realise they are stealing bread from the mouths of we professionals...???

And yes, I've been published several times in sailing mags, and I have learned the hard way to get a contract first, or at least an agreement.

Anything done 'on spec' is worth zip unless they agree to pay you IF THEY USE IT, and at a pre-agreed rate.

So be sure to ask 'what is that rate..??'

There's one rate for 'commissioned' pieces (i.e. you pitch the idea, they accept, you negotiate the rate or, better yet, a fee). So if they then 'cut' the story substantially to fit copy restrictions, you still get paid for ALL the work, not just that bit they used.

Be prepared to wait at least 129 days for payment, also. Very few 'lifestyle magazines' pay sooner than that.

The real issue is that 'offshoring' jobs to countries with a lower labour rate should not, IMHO, be allowed.

The reason writers from developed countries need a higher rate of pay is we have higher expenses, taxation, on-costs etc etc etc. The 'cost of living' is higher where we are.

The reason this is not the case in the 'offshore' countries is they lack regulation, don't have the societal on-costs, tax rates, property rates, living expenses etc.

So while it's great for those in the low paid country to get a job at all, ultimately, the true benificiary is the 'owner of capital' or business owner.

The unfettered and largely unregulated so-called 'market' is actually the problem.

If the low labour country ahdd the same on-costs as the high labour country, they'd both need to earn the same right.

So this is clearly not a 'level playing field' as the 'pro-markets' economists would have us believe.

Much like the 'externality' that is gobal warming, the true picture is not being factored into the relative costs of doing work.

But levelling the playing field would require 'distortion of the market'.

It's why Australia's labour market is fairer than some others I could name.

Not great, but a bit better.

[GordMay]

... There's one rate for 'commissioned' pieces (i.e. you pitch the idea, they accept, you negotiate the rate or, better yet, a fee). So if they then 'cut' the story substantially to fit copy restrictions, you still get paid for ALL the work, not just that bit they used.
Be prepared to wait at least 129 days for payment, also. Very few 'lifestyle magazines' pay sooner than that...

FWIW: “Good Old Boat” asks that you submit articles on speculation, but pays 30-45 days prior to publication. They aren’t formal enough to fuss with contracts, but they’ll send you a copy of their simple writer’s agreement, at the time they make you an offer.
➥ https://goodoldboat.com/writers-guidelines/

[south4320]

Originally Posted by Buzzman

Three cents a word...???? Tell 'em their dreaming!

No professional writer worth their salt would accept anything less than around 30c a word, or approx $300/1000wds.

Reductive logic determines anyone so accepting is ergo non-professional, and by further deductive logic, not worth reading.

High-skilled amateurs notwithstanding, hope they realise they are stealing bread from the mouths of we professionals...???

And yes, I've been published several times in sailing mags, and I have learned the hard way to get a contract first, or at least an agreement.

Anything done 'on spec' is worth zip unless they agree to pay you IF THEY USE IT, and at a pre-agreed rate.

So be sure to ask 'what is that rate..??'

There's one rate for 'commissioned' pieces (i.e. you pitch the idea, they accept, you negotiate the rate or, better yet, a fee). So if they then 'cut' the story substantially to fit copy restrictions, you still get paid for ALL the work, not just that bit they used.

Be prepared to wait at least 129 days for payment, also. Very few 'lifestyle magazines' pay sooner than that.

The real issue is that 'offshoring' jobs to countries with a lower labour rate should not, IMHO, be allowed.

The reason writers from developed countries need a higher rate of pay is we have higher expenses, taxation, on-costs etc etc etc. The 'cost of living' is higher where we are.

The reason this is not the case in the 'offshore' countries is they lack regulation, don't have the societal on-costs, tax rates, property rates, living expenses etc.

So while it's great for those in the low paid country to get a job at all, ultimately, the true benificiary is the 'owner of capital' or business owner.

The unfettered and largely unregulated so-called 'market' is actually the problem.

If the low labour country ahdd the same on-costs as the high labour country, they'd both need to earn the same right.

So this is clearly not a 'level playing field' as the 'pro-markets' economists would have us believe.

Much like the 'externality' that is gobal warming, the true picture is not being factored into the relative costs of doing work.

But levelling the playing field would require 'distortion of the market'.

It's why Australia's labour market is fairer than some others I could name.

Not great, but a bit better.

So I take it that you will only be using professionals to build your boat and all the materials and fittings are made in Australia

[Island Time O25]

The phrase about "amateurs stealing bread from the mouths of professionals" got me thinking. And now I'm not sure who is stealing from whom.

Some years back my alternator needed to be replaced. I asked the guy in the mooring next to mine whom would he recommend for this. He named someone adding "he only charged me $800 incl. installation and the next estimate was $1,200". That information spurred me to research the subject some more.

Sure enough all "marine grade" alternators were between $600 and $900 but a decent enough 110A knock off could be had for $70 incl. shipping. So I figured even if I have to get one every season I'd still be ahead of the game 10 years later. And since I don't cruise far from shore bulletproof reliability is not an issue while costs are an issue. It took all of 30minutes at most to unbolt the old one and bolt on the new one. 7 years later that cheap knock off is still putting out as much juices as in the beginning.

Did I steal bread from Motorola and the like which have $600-900 units on the market? From some Joe The Marine Electrician who would've charged $200-300 or more for a visit? Or did I prevent them stealing from me?