Adding second set of side navigation lights

[FabioC]

Originally Posted by chrisr

not sure if the mast mounted sidelights you mention are a masthead tri-colour or not (?) but irrespective you really should have deck level side lights for use when motoring

your white masthead light (carried when motoring) needs to be above your side lights. i suppose you could still do this with yr mast mounted side lights but it would be very interesting for another vessel trying to interpret !

btw, if the mast mounted side lights are NOT a masthead tri-colour, how do you avoid the headsail obscuring them ??

cheers,

I do have the white masthead light. The current configuration is certainly "legal" (it is the configuration that comes with all new Jeanneau's).

The mast mounted side lights are partially obscured by the jib and completely obscured by the asymmetric spinnakers, which is one of the reasons why I am always uncomfortable sailing at night with the current configuration.

Since this is the "production" configuration of the lights, I guess most people find it acceptable, or maybe do not care, but for me this feeling of being "invisible" (or at least not visible from all angles) takes away the pleasure of sailing at night and stresses me out, hence my thinking that in many situations, having deck-level navigation lights would be preferable.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by FabioC

It makes sense to me as well, side lights at the shrouds should be easier to install/route the wires to. Why are deck-level side lights at the shrouds very rare in sailboats? Almost all the sailboats I see that have deck-level lights have them on the bow/pulpit. I can see that lights at the shrouds may be tricky to keep out of the way, but certainly doable, so I am not sure I have an answer of why it is not a popular solution. Anybody has a definitive answer?

The foresail will often obscure a midship mounted navigation side light such as ones placed on shrouds or on the side of a cabin / pilothouse, especially when an overlapping sail is deployed.

The navigation lights need to be placed in front of the foremost sails hence place on the pulpit, or in the alternative by use of a tricolor light at the top of the mast. With one or the other in use, but never both in use at the same time.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by FabioC

I do have the white masthead light. The current configuration is certainly "legal" (it is the configuration that comes with all new Jeanneau's).

The mast mounted side lights are partially obscured by the jib and completely obscured by the asymmetric spinnakers, which is one of the reasons why I am always uncomfortable sailing at night with the current configuration.

Since this is the "production" configuration of the lights, I guess most people find it acceptable, or maybe do not care, but for me this feeling of being "invisible" (or at least not visible from all angles) takes away the pleasure of sailing at night and stresses me out, hence my thinking that in many situations, having deck-level navigation lights would be preferable.

Specifically where on the Jeanneau's mast are your navigation sidelights mounted?

Looking at images of new Jeanneau 51 & 54 sailboats on the Jeanneau website, they appear to have separate sidelights mounted on the pulpit to starboard and port.

https://www.jeanneau.com/en/boats/sa...ery-exterior_9

https://www.jeanneauamerica.com/en/b...ry-exterior_35

But their Sun Odyssey 41, well now that is a mystery as while I can see a masthead light for use when motoring [built as a unit in combination with downward illuminating deck light] that is fractionally mounted on the front of the mast, there does not appear to be either a tricolor light on the top of the mast, nor deck or pulpit mounted sidelights, which absence of navigational side lights leaves me wondering WTF?

https://www.jeanneauamerica.com/en/b...ry-exterior_17

https://www.jeanneauamerica.com/en/b...ery-exterior_3

https://www.jeanneauamerica.com/en/b...ry-exterior_10

[Clivevon]

I have no knowledge of Jenneaus apart from having sailed on a few 30 years ago, but I am really having trouble getting my head around your original post.
Normally, any sailing yacht has a tricolour light at the top of the mast.
By "tricolour light", I mean a light with one bulb, visible from 360 degrees, with the case divided into 3 segments, showing red to the port side, green to starboard, & white to the rear.
By "at the top of the mast", I mean above everything else except your (thin) VHF aerial, so that the light is totally unobstructed & CANNOT be obstructed or interfered with by anything else on the boat.
The tricolour light fitting is usually combined with an anchor light above it, showing a separately switched all round white light for use when anchored.
So the tricolour light /anchor light fitting sits above the top of your mast, above your halliard sheaves, above EVERYTHING.
I am having some difficulty in accepting that a firm of the stature of Jeanneau have installed some different type of arrangement but if that is so, you need to change it as a matter of urgency so it complies with what I have stated above.
Then you can think about your deck level nav lights.

[Montanan]

COLREGs

—INTERNATIONAL—
Lights and Shapes
RULE 25

Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars
(a) A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:
(i) sidelights;
(ii) a stern light.
(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters in length the lights prescribed
in paragraph (a) of this Rule may be combined in one lantern carried at or
near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.

(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in
paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they
can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red
and the lower green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction
with the combined lantern permitted by paragraph (b) of this Rule.

RED over Green Sailing Machine.


—INTERNATIONAL—
Lights and Shapes
RULE 21
Definitions
(a) “Masthead light” means a white light placed over the fore and aft
centerline of the vessel showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon
of 225 degrees and so fixed as to show the light from right ahead to 22.5
degrees abaft the beam on either side of the vessel.
(b) “Sidelights” means a green light on the starboard side and a red light
on the port side each showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon
of 112.5 degrees and so fixed as to show the light from right ahead to 22.5
degrees abaft the beam on its respective side. In a vessel of less than 20
meters in length the sidelights may be combined in one lantern carried on
the fore and aft centerline of the vessel.
(c) “Sternlight” means a white light placed as nearly as practicable at the
stern showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 135 degrees
and so fixed as to show the light 67.5 degrees from right aft on each side of
the vessel.
(d) “Towing light” means a yellow light having the same characteristics as
the “sternlight” defined in paragraph (c) of this Rule.
(e) “All-round light” means a light showing an unbroken light over an arc of
the horizon of 360 degrees.
(f) “Flashing light” means a light flashing at regular intervals at a frequency
of 120 flashes or more per minute.

For a sailing vessel [one not motoring] and underway, one or the other configurations of navigation lights is allowed. But one is not allowed to simultaneously have both the tricolor top of mast light turned on, and also the lower deck / pulpit mounted navigation side lights with a stern white light. Either one configuration or the other configuration, but never both illuminated at the same time.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by jakkum

For ships over 20 m, sailing, an all round red and one meter lower an all round ggreen( 2 180o vreen will do) is othe official alternative.
You could just think big about yourself.

That is dangerous and incorrect advice. There is no size limit on red over green it is an addition, not an alternative and must be "at or near the top of the mast".



A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by paragraph (b) of this Rule

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

...Normally, any sailing yacht has a tricolour light at the top of the mast...

Normally? Really?

[Gypsyjon]

I used these things when I did the Great Loop.

They are solar rechargeable will last about 3 full nights with no sunshine.

I used 2 of the white ones for anchor lights, put them on top of my pilot house so maybe I would not get hit by a crabber running WFO at 3 in the morning.

https://www.esafetylights.com/s6ls-steady-on.html

[Captain Anthony]

Following

[Cheechako]

"there are many situations in which you would want to show the navigation lights at deck level, not at mast level"

What situations would that be? I guess maybe local harbor traffic?
On one boat I went with the single Aqua Signal bow light at the pulpit front. Less maintenance than two lights on the pulpit side.

If you add them dont run both.
The high ones on the mast are probably better visibility at sea.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by chrisr

not sure if the mast mounted sidelights you mention are a masthead tri-colour or not (?) but irrespective you really should have deck level side lights for use when motoring

your white masthead light (carried when motoring) needs to be above your side lights. i suppose you could still do this with yr mast mounted side lights but it would be very interesting for another vessel trying to interpret !

btw, if the mast mounted side lights are NOT a masthead tri-colour, how do you avoid the headsail obscuring them ??

cheers,

COLREGs

—INTERNATIONAL—
Lights and Shapes
RULE 23

Power-driven Vessels Underway

(a) A power-driven vessel underway shall exhibit:
(i) a masthead light forward;
(ii) a second masthead light abaft of and higher than the forward one;
except that a vessel of less than 50 meters in length shall not be
obliged to exhibit such light but may do so;
(iii) sidelights; and
(iv) a sternlight.

Now to get deep into the weeds for Yankland.

United States Code of Federal Regulations

84.01 Definitions
(a) The term "height above the hull" means height above the uppermost continuous deck. This height shall be measured from the position vertically beneath the location of the light.

84.03 Vertical positioning and spacing of lights

(a) On a power-driven vessel of 20 meters or more in length the masthead lights shall be placed as follows:
(1) The forward masthead light, or if only one masthead light is carried, then that light, at a height above the hull of not less than 5 meters, and, if the breadth of the vessel exceeds 5 meters, then at a height above the hull not less than such breadth, so however that the light need not be placed at a greater height above the hull than 8 meters;
(2) When two masthead lights are carried the after one shall be at least 2 meters vertically higher than the forward one.
(b) The vertical separation of the masthead lights of power-driven vessels shall be such that in all normal conditions of trim the after light will be seen over and separate from the forward light at a distance of 1000 meters from the stem when viewed from water level.

(c) The masthead light of a power-driven vessel of 12 meters but less than 20 meters in length shall be placed at a height above the gunwale of not less than 2.5 meters.

(d) The masthead light, or the all-round light described in Rule 23(c), of a power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length shall be carried at least one meter higher than the sidelights.

(e) One of the two or three masthead lights prescribed for a powerdriven vessel when engaged in towing or pushing another vessel shall be placed in the same position as either the forward masthead light or the after masthead light, provided that the lowest after masthead light shall be at least 2 meters vertically higher than the highest forward masthead light.

(f)
(1) The masthead light or lights prescribed in Rule 23(a) shall be so placed as to be above and clear of all other lights and obstructions except as described in paragraph (f)(2) of this section.
(2) When it is impracticable to carry the all-round lights prescribed in Rule 27(b)(i) below the masthead lights, they may be carried above the after masthead light(s) or vertically in between the forward masthead light(s) and after masthead light(s), provided that in the latter case the requirement of � 84.05(d) shall be complied with.

(g) The sidelights of a power-driven vessel shall be placed at least one meter lower than the forward masthead light. They shall not be so low as to be interfered with by deck lights.

(h) [Reserved]
(i) When the Rules prescribe two or three lights to be carried in a vertical line, they shall be spaced as follows:
(1) On a vessel of 20 meters in length or more such lights shall be spaced not less than 1 meter apart, and the lowest of these lights shall, except where a towing light is required, be placed at a height of not less than 4 meters above the hull;
(2) On a vessel of less than 20 meters in length such lights shall be spaced not less than 1 meter apart and the lowest of these lights shall, except where a towing light is required, be placed at a height of not less than 2 meters above the gunwale;
(3) When three lights are carried they shall be equally spaced.
(j) The lower of the two all-round lights prescribed for a vessel when engaged in fishing shall be at a height above the sidelights not less than twice the distance between the two vertical lights.
(k) The forward anchor light prescribed in Rule 30(a)(i), when two are carried, shall not be less than 4.5 meters above the after one. On a vessel of 50 meters or more in length this forward anchor light shall be placed at a height of not less than 6 meters above the hull.


84.05 Horizontal positioning and spacing of lights

(a) Except as specified in paragraph (e) of this section, when two masthead lights are prescribed for a power-driven vessel, the horizontal distance between them must not be less than one quarter of the length of the vessel but need not be more than 50 meters. The forward light shall be placed not more than one half of the length of the vessel from the stem.

(b) On a power-driven vessel of 20 meters or more in length the sidelights shall not be placed in front of the forward masthead lights. They shall be placed at or near the side of the vessel.

(c) When the lights prescribed in Rule 27(b)(i) are placed vertically between the forward masthead light(s) and the after masthead light(s) these all-round lights shall be placed at a horizontal distance of not less than 2 meters from the fore and aft centerline of the vessel in the athwartship direction.

(d) When only one masthead light is prescribed for a power-driven vessel, this light must be exhibited forward of amidships. For a vessel of less than 20 meters in length, the vessel shall exhibit on masthead light as far forward as is practicable.

(e) On power-driven vessels 50 meters but less than 60 meters in length operated on the Western Rivers, and those waters specified in �89.25, the horizontal distance between masthead lights shall not be less than 10 meters.


This means that for power driven vessels that are less than 20 meters in length the side lights may be placed forward of the masthead light, e.g., at the bow. but they do not need to be placed forward of the masthead light. But they do need to be placed where they are not ever obscured, e.g. by sails, or other cluttering hardware.

[MLC]

I have a Beneteau Oceanis 321 made in 1998. It has a red and green bow light attached to the pulpit and a white light on the transom. It also has a white steaming light on the mast. I have thought of installing a tri-color backup at the top of the mast but have decided the cost is not worth it where I sail on the Great Lakes and the limited amount of night sailing I do. I did buy a set of clamp-on battery powered red/green bow and a white stern lights from West Marine as emergency back ups. They do not meet the Colregs for brightness but I figure they are better than nothing.

[FabioC]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Specifically where on the Jeanneau's mast are your navigation sidelights mounted?

But their Sun Odyssey 41, well now that is a mystery as while I can see a masthead light for use when motoring [built as a unit in combination with downward illuminating deck light] that is fractionally mounted on the front of the mast, there does not appear to be either a tricolor light on the top of the mast, nor deck or pulpit mounted sidelights, which absence of navigational side lights leaves me wondering WTF?

I have a 2016 SO 349, but the new ones have the same configuration and the SO 41 is also the same (at least until 2019, which is the most recent I saw).

The mast-mounted nav lights are mounted approximately at mid height of the mast.

It is an undesirable location, not only because they do get hidden by the head sails and spinnakers, but also because they get knocked off by the halyards (if you secure the lazy halyards at the base of the mast - I talked to other Jeanneau owners, everyone I talked to has lost those lights at least once...), or if you have an overlapping genoa, it may get hit by the sail during a tack, or if you hoist the spinnaker in the shadow of the main, or... This latter issue can be partially resolved by installing a light guard around the fixture, but even the guard does not completely eliminate the possibility of a halyard hitting it just the right way to knock it off. The thing is that often you realize they are gone when you need them, you go to turn them on, look up, and there is nothing there... I guess this is one of those things in life, you just have to accept it... still, a PITA, not sure why it was designed like this.

[jacktheflyer]

Originally Posted by FabioC

It makes sense to me as well, side lights at the shrouds should be easier to install/route the wires to. Why are deck-level side lights at the shrouds very rare in sailboats? Almost all the sailboats I see that have deck-level lights have them on the bow/pulpit. I can see that lights at the shrouds may be tricky to keep out of the way, but certainly doable, so I am not sure I have an answer of why it is not a popular solution. Anybody has a definitive answer?

I helped a friend sail his new purchase to his home port. This has been the only sailing catamaran I've seen with side lights which were just forward of the shrouds on the topsides. I found the glare of the red and green off the topsides ruined my night vision.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by MLC

I have a Beneteau Oceanis 321 made in 1998. It has a red and green bow light attached to the pulpit and a white light on the transom. It also has a white steaming light on the mast. I have thought of installing a tri-color backup at the top of the mast but have decided the cost is not worth it where I sail on the Great Lakes and the limited amount of night sailing I do. I did buy a set of clamp-on battery powered red/green bow and a white stern lights from West Marine as emergency back ups. They do not meet the Colregs for brightness but I figure they are better than nothing.

A Beneteau Oceanis 321 has a LWL: 29.36 ft (8.95 m)

—INTERNATIONAL—
Lights and Shapes
RULE 22
Visibility of Lights
The lights prescribed in these Rules shall have an intensity as specified in
Section 8 of Annex I to these Regulations so as to be visible at the following
minimum ranges:
(a) In vessels of 50 meters or more in length:
− a masthead light, 6 miles;
− a sidelight, 3 miles;
− a sternlight, 3 miles;
− a towing light, 3 miles;
− a white, red, green or yellow all-round light, 3 miles.
(b) In vessels of 12 meters or more in length but less than 50 meters in
length:
− a masthead light, 5 miles; except that where the length of the vessel is
less than 20 meters, 3 miles;
− a sidelight, 2 miles;
− a sternlight, 2 miles;
− a towing light, 2 miles;
− a white, red, green or yellow all-round light, 2 miles.
(c) In vessels of less than 12 meters in length:
− a masthead light, 2 miles;
− a sidelight, 1 mile;
− a sternlight, 2 miles;
− a towing light, 2 miles;
− a white, red, green or yellow all-round light, 2 miles.
(d) In inconspicuous, partly submerged vessels or objects being towed:
(a) a white all-round light, 3 miles.

Most all of the inexpensive, clamp on, or suction cup mountable, LED lighted, powered by 4 AA batteries, colored side lights are stated to have 2 mile visibility, which is fully twice the one mile requirement of a boat less than 12 meters in length, but also is dependent on the batteries being not worn down in their voltage. The packaging usually states for what size of vessel they are certified to fulfill the requirements of. The clear or white all around and stern lights are brighter than the colored sidelights, and have greater viewability.

When new and in good condition, hese cheap battery powered lights can out perform the visibility of factory installed navigation lights whose lens have become occluded by sun fading and dirt and yellowing of the clear lenses. If you have an old boat with original lights one should consider at least replacing the lens, but switching over to high quality LED lamped newer navigation lights to upgrade from yesteryears' technology is a good safety investment.

Always good to have them on board as back ups if the primary lights fail.