Advice on electronics upgrade

[Paul L]

Jerry
Sounds like a nice upgrade. You haven't stated what type of cruising you plan on, passage making, coastal,..... If you plan offshore work then I would place the chartplotter next to where you stand watch. For most boats that's tucked up under the dodger.

I know others don't agree with this but I have concerns running the N2K backbone up the mast. If nothing else it opens it up even worse for lightning and as far as I know there are no lightning isolators for N2K like there are for VHF.
Also, consider a second antenna for your AIS instead of a splitter. It can be mounted on a Bimini/aft rail, it can act as a backup VHF antenna. Just an option.

And one more thing to consider, the newer Class B 5 watt systems are just starting to ship.

[Snore]

Play with the Zeus plotter. I have run Ray, Garmin and BG stuff. Perhaps it is my naïveté, but I find Garmin and Ray very intuitive and BG a PITA.

Go to a store or peoples boats and mess around with it.

Also look at how you will do Firmware upgrades. Will the proposed layout support firmware upgrades for all of the components?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jerry Woodward

Wow Dockhead, thanks for the detailed and useful suggestions. In the meantime, I have diagrammed the system I am thinking about. Nothing like putting things down on paper (or digital paper) to force one to really think about how things will work. I have attached my current plan (subject to change of course). I believe it incorporates many of the suggestions you and others have made. As I said initially, I need/want to add a masthead wind sensor and AIS. After listening to everyone's comments, I agree that I should probably have a good display at the helm also. I like the features of the Zeuss 2 and that would also allow me to add 3g or 4g radar later. Finally, I would install an N2K backbone, but try to keep my 0183 autopilot and tridata.

So, putting this all together, I would buy an N2K wind sensor, either Maretron WSO 100 or mechanical (WSO gets mixed reviews, so I wil continue to do research here). Run a N2K backbone down the mast and connect to a Vesper XB 8000, and a Zeus-2 9" at the helm. This would give me a great chartplotter with AIS overlay,wind speed/direction and any other N2K data at the helm. I would then hook the Zeus 2 to the ST4000 autopilot through 0183 inputs and outputs and hopefully, they would play nice with each other and I could steer by wind angle. The Vesper also has an 0183 input so I might be able to connect the tridata and get speed and depth onto the N2K network. The Vesper would also transmit data to wifi and with the watchmate apps on iPAD and phones, I could have all the Vesper AIS capability in the salon or in a berth to monitor anchor dragging, etc. The external alarm should allow the anchor alarm or proximity alarm to work even if the phone or ipad is shut off. So this would give me a pretty nice system for about $2,000, I think.

I think that is looking very good.

A few comments:

1. You will be very glad indeed to have a good plotter at the helm. The 9" Zeus will give you a very usable AIS display (besides of course a great chart display) and you will be radar-ready.

2. That Vesper unit has the very useful function of translating N2K data to 0183 and distributing over Wifi so your tablet plotter programs will work. HOWEVER, it is expensive, and it uses the soon-to-be obsolete plain Class B AIS protocol. If you're going to have a Zeus plotter, you can have the same translation and wifi functions with the $200 Wifi-1 module (which is what I use), and you can use any black box AIS unit, including one which uses the newer and greatly improved SOTDMA protocol. My advice would be to go this route. With the Wifi-1 module you gain the additional benefit of being able to control your plotter remotely with an Android tablet.

3. I don't like splitters for AIS antennas; in my opinion a separate antenna is far better. That's just my opinion; form your own. But I would think about this if I were you.

4. I don't understand how you're getting GPS data into your VHF -- does your GPS unit output both 0183 and N2K? This is a minor detail -- there are different ways to do it, including using 0183 output from the plotter (you can have multiple listeners connected to one 0183 talker port), provided the baud rate is appropriate (what does the pilot need?). If you haven't bought the GPS unit yet, by all means, get one which does all the different constellations including the Russian and European ones, like the brilliant Simrad GS25.

Otherwise all looks good to me.

[sailingharry]

You mention the Maetron WSO 100. My father has one and loves it. MUCH more reliable than mechanical ones, that osprey routinely break.

However, I urge you to consider the Airmar WX200. I have the PB200 (older version), and it is an awesome piece of equipment. For around $1300 plus another couple hundred for a cable, you get:

* Wind speed/direction. duh, that's it's main purpose!
* Air temp
* Digital 3-axis compass (don't let detractors tell you it won't work at the masthead -- a digital compass has no inertia, and so is rock solid up there)
* 3-axis rate gyro
* Heel/pitch angle
* Barametric pressure
* Full GPS (don't even try to use its speed/course -- for this, the mast motion is a problem) as a backup data source. Yes, you have a chart plotter, but who can so "no" to an extra GPS.

All this in a device the size of your fist!

Some information indicates that it should be too far from the VHF antenna to easily install. Mine are 6" apart, with no noticeable impact to either system.

Mine has been up there since 2014, and all it does is keep working! Truly an incredible piece of kit, and will be installed on my next boat.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

You mention the Maetron WSO 100. My father has one and loves it. MUCH more reliable than mechanical ones, that osprey routinely break.

However, I urge you to consider the Airmar WX200. I have the PB200 (older version), and it is an awesome piece of equipment. For around $1300 plus another couple hundred for a cable, you get:

* Wind speed/direction. duh, that's it's main purpose!
* Air temp
* Digital 3-axis compass (don't let detractors tell you it won't work at the masthead -- a digital compass has no inertia, and so is rock solid up there)
* 3-axis rate gyro
* Heel/pitch angle
* Barametric pressure
* Full GPS (don't even try to use its speed/course -- for this, the mast motion is a problem) as a backup data source. Yes, you have a chart plotter, but who can so "no" to an extra GPS.

All this in a device the size of your fist!

Some information indicates that it should be too far from the VHF antenna to easily install. Mine are 6" apart, with no noticeable impact to either system.

Mine has been up there since 2014, and all it does is keep working! Truly an incredible piece of kit, and will be installed on my next boat.

I agree with this advice, but for completely different reasons. The WX200 is made for power boats which can actually use the compass and rate gyros and gps; for sailboats, in my opinion, all this gear is useless in a masttop unit.

BUT the WSO100 has a fatal flaw -- it has bad weather sealing and will die from water intrusion. I have one and would never buy another one unless I saw convincing evidence that the issue had been resolved. So buy the Airmar -- I think they make one (WX100?) without the stuff you don't need.

Or have a look at the French ultrasonic ones, which may be the best of all.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I agree with this advice, but for completely different reasons. The WX200 is made for power boats which can actually use the compass and rate gyros and gps; for sailboats, in my opinion, all this gear is useless in a masttop unit.

I'll agree that Airmar has been less than supportive of use on a sailboat -- the PB in PB200 stands for power boat. However, I can't agree with your comments on the PB200.

The compass is the only magnetic compass on my network. It is rock solid when sailing in heavy seas, and always agrees closely with my binnacle and my the "GPS heading" on my chart plotter (COG value). I'm convinced it is the most accurate heading I have on my boat. But I only use it for a readout, because my Autopilot has its own compass. A separate dedicated digital compass on the network is $400+, making this a great value (assuming, of course, you value a digital readout -- I could buy the argument that my binnacle compass is vastly more useful than a digital readout on the instruments!)

The PB200 doesn't have the gyros, that's new for the WX200. But again, I'm really not sure what value they have to anyone, sail or power -- A/P's almost always have their own rate gyro/compass.

The GPS is nice, in that it is available. My chartplotter is having issues this season, and so I'm temporarily using a handheld (I know my local waters so well that it's really not an issue at all). I've pumped the GPS into the instruments for displaying time, and if I don't bother putting in the speed transducer I'll even use the GPS for calculating true wind. Sure, it's off a bit, but not bad. Point is, it doesn't cost much to get it.

The WX150 does shave off about $400, but you loose heel angle, pitch angle, magnetic compass, and backup GPS. I felt it was worth the extra.

One cautionary note. There is a 200WX and a 220WX. They appear to have identical specs. Find out the difference before you buy one!

[Jerry Woodward]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Jerry
Sounds like a nice upgrade. You haven't stated what type of cruising you plan on, passage making, coastal,..... If you plan offshore work then I would place the chartplotter next to where you stand watch. For most boats that's tucked up under the dodger.

I know others don't agree with this but I have concerns running the N2K backbone up the mast. If nothing else it opens it up even worse for lightning and as far as I know there are no lightning isolators for N2K like there are for VHF.
Also, consider a second antenna for your AIS instead of a splitter. It can be mounted on a Bimini/aft rail, it can act as a backup VHF antenna. Just an option.

And one more thing to consider, the newer Class B 5 watt systems are just starting to ship.

I'll doing part time coastal cruising out of Punta Gorda, Keys, Tortugas, Bahamas. I plan on going to the Western Caribbean in two years. The plotter will be at the helm. The PDQ has a nice dry helm with bimini and dodger.

Is the recommendation for a dedicated antenna for redundancy? I thought its much better for AIS to have it up high. I don't have anything very high to mount it on at the stern. I've read other posts suggesting that a 2 watt system with antenna at the mast head would be as good as a 5 watt system with antenna lower at the stern. What do think?

Lightening, yikes. If I put a 0183 wind sensor atop the mast, I would still have to run a cable down the mast and eventually connect it to the N2K system, so wouldn't a lightening strike still fry the whole system? My feeling is that lightening is so unpredictable that you can't predict what would happen. I have good insurance.

[Jerry Woodward]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think that is looking very good.

A few comments:

1. You will be very glad indeed to have a good plotter at the helm. The 9" Zeus will give you a very usable AIS display (besides of course a great chart display) and you will be radar-ready.

2. That Vesper unit has the very useful function of translating N2K data to 0183 and distributing over Wifi so your tablet plotter programs will work. HOWEVER, it is expensive, and it uses the soon-to-be obsolete plain Class B AIS protocol. If you're going to have a Zeus plotter, you can have the same translation and wifi functions with the $200 Wifi-1 module (which is what I use), and you can use any black box AIS unit, including one which uses the newer and greatly improved SOTDMA protocol. My advice would be to go this route. With the Wifi-1 module you gain the additional benefit of being able to control your plotter remotely with an Android tablet.

Can you suggest a model for the new transponders? I will look into them. However, the Vesper is $800 and the cheapest black box transponder I saw on Defender is about $600, so when you add in the wifi-1 module they are about the same.

3. I don't like splitters for AIS antennas; in my opinion a separate antenna is far better. That's just my opinion; form your own. But I would think about this if I were you.

See my comment to Paul

4. I don't understand how you're getting GPS data into your VHF -- does your GPS unit output both 0183 and N2K? This is a minor detail -- there are different ways to do it, including using 0183 output from the plotter (you can have multiple listeners connected to one 0183 talker port), provided the baud rate is appropriate (what does the pilot need?). If you haven't bought the GPS unit yet, by all means, get one which does all the different constellations including the Russian and European ones, like the brilliant Simrad GS25.

Otherwise all looks good to me.

Hmm, I guess I'm a bit confused. I thought the GPS mushroom was just an antenna. It plugs into a dedicated port on the Vesper, not the N2K backbone. So I thought it would work for the VHF as well. But as you said, I could output 0183 from the plotter if need be.

[Jerry Woodward]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I agree with this advice, but for completely different reasons. The WX200 is made for power boats which can actually use the compass and rate gyros and gps; for sailboats, in my opinion, all this gear is useless in a masttop unit.

BUT the WSO100 has a fatal flaw -- it has bad weather sealing and will die from water intrusion. I have one and would never buy another one unless I saw convincing evidence that the issue had been resolved. So buy the Airmar -- I think they make one (WX100?) without the stuff you don't need.

Or have a look at the French ultrasonic ones, which may be the best of all.

I never thought choosing a wind sensor would be so difficult. It seems like everyone I look at has problems. I will consider the Airmars, it looks like they have several models to choose from. The LCJ Capteurs looks good, but I can't find a US distributor. I'm a bit reluctant to deal out of the country.

[noelex 77]

Jerry, give some thought to the Zeus 3 instead of the Zeus 2. It is only a minor upgrade but has some nice extra features, including a better screen.

The price difference depends on what discounts are offered in your local area for the superseded model, but generally there does not seem much saving opting for the 2, especially if you want the wifi function (which is built into the 3, but is an add on for the 2).

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Jerry Woodward

I'll doing part time coastal cruising out of Punta Gorda, Keys, Tortugas, Bahamas. I plan on going to the Western Caribbean in two years. The plotter will be at the helm. The PDQ has a nice dry helm with bimini and dodger.
Then in your case your helm and tucked under the dodger are effectively the same thing.
It's different on a mono.
Is the recommendation for a dedicated antenna for redundancy? I thought its much better for AIS to have it up high. I don't have anything very high to mount it on at the stern. I've read other posts suggesting that a 2 watt system with antenna at the mast head would be as good as a 5 watt system with antenna lower at the stern. What do think?
It is not a recommendation, it is a viable option. AIS mounted low, ie not at the masthead,
works fine. You will see some reduced distances but usually not enough to care. Removing the splitter has advantages. Both approaches are fine. The newer AIS class B approach deals with broadcast package scheduling and frequency in a manner closer to class A. So it is improved more than just going to 5 watts. If nothing else, the older 2 watt systems will be dropping in price.
Lightening, yikes. If I put a 0183 wind sensor atop the mast, I would still have to run a cable down the mast and eventually connect it to the N2K system, so wouldn't a lightening strike still fry the whole system? My feeling is that lightening is so unpredictable that you can't predict what would happen. I have good insurance.
You are close enough to home to rely on insurance. It would be a long route for mast head 183 to enter the N2K bus. Lightning is fickle

.......

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jerry Woodward

Hmm, I guess I'm a bit confused. I thought the GPS mushroom was just an antenna. It plugs into a dedicated port on the Vesper, not the N2K backbone. So I thought it would work for the VHF as well. But as you said, I could output 0183 from the plotter if need be.

GPS "mushrooms" come in two flavors -- the one you use with your AIS is just an antenna, yes. The one you put in your network is a whole receiver. The one in the AIS unit is rudimentary and is used to fulfill the rules that AIS transponders must have their own GPS units and not rely on network data. You want a proper GPS (actually GMDSS) receiver on the network.

Your VHF does not have a GPS receiver in it and connecting it to a GPS antenna will do nothing. It wants position data in 0183 format.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Jerry, give some thought to the Zeus 3 instead of the Zeus 2. It is only a minor upgrade but has some nice extra features, including a better screen.

The price difference depends on what discounts are offered in your local area for the superseded model, but generally there does not seem much saving opting for the 2, especially if you want the wifi function (which is built into the 3, but is an add on for the 2).

The Zeus 3 has Wifi built in, but I don't know whether it streams 0183 data like the WiFi-1 module does. One would want to check. If it does, it neatens the installation by eliminating one box.

AFAIK the Zeus 3 has a number of very significant improvements, especially computing power, which is lacking on the Zeuses I've used.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

I'll agree that Airmar has been less than supportive of use on a sailboat -- the PB in PB200 stands for power boat. However, I can't agree with your comments on the PB200.

The compass is the only magnetic compass on my network. It is rock solid when sailing in heavy seas, and always agrees closely with my binnacle and my the "GPS heading" on my chart plotter (COG value). I'm convinced it is the most accurate heading I have on my boat. But I only use it for a readout, because my Autopilot has its own compass. A separate dedicated digital compass on the network is $400+, making this a great value (assuming, of course, you value a digital readout -- I could buy the argument that my binnacle compass is vastly more useful than a digital readout on the instruments!)

The PB200 doesn't have the gyros, that's new for the WX200. But again, I'm really not sure what value they have to anyone, sail or power -- A/P's almost always have their own rate gyro/compass.

The GPS is nice, in that it is available. My chartplotter is having issues this season, and so I'm temporarily using a handheld (I know my local waters so well that it's really not an issue at all). I've pumped the GPS into the instruments for displaying time, and if I don't bother putting in the speed transducer I'll even use the GPS for calculating true wind. Sure, it's off a bit, but not bad. Point is, it doesn't cost much to get it.

The WX150 does shave off about $400, but you loose heel angle, pitch angle, magnetic compass, and backup GPS. I felt it was worth the extra.

One cautionary note. There is a 200WX and a 220WX. They appear to have identical specs. Find out the difference before you buy one!

Autopilot computers don't have gyros (actually accelerometers; they don't use actual gyroscopes) anymore; because the "gyros" work much better installed with the compass, whose data they are correcting.

The compass should be installed as close as possible to the roll and pitch centers of the boat. The top of the mast is absolutely the worst possible place to put it -- it will hugely degrade its performance. It may seem some kind of OK to you now, but if you put it in the proper place, it would work like orders of magnitude better. This has a big effect on autopilot performance (also radar overlay, MARPA, true wind, etc., etc.).

A good compass, properly installed in the correct place, is one of the best investments you can make in boat electronics. It has a huge effect on how the pilot works. It is worth saving money elsewhere in order to nail this one.

[lateral]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

The PB200 doesn't have the gyros, that's new for the WX200.

From the manual:
The PB200 WeatherStation is a multifunctional device that integrates several sensors into
a single compact housing. These sensors include:
• Ultrasonic anemometer, providing apparent wind speed and direction
• Thermistor, providing air temperature
• Piezoresistive pressure sensor, providing barometric pressure
• Magnetoinductive XYZ sensors, providing tilt-compensated
magnetic compass heading.

• 3-axis MEMS accelerometer, providing pitch and roll angles
• MEMS rate gyro, providing rate-of-turn of the vessel
• Global Positioning System (GPS) receiver, providing position, and speed and course over ground.

My compass heading at masthead is also stable but is switched off as I use the GH2183 nearer COG of boat for heading. Good for redundancy though.