Advice on instruments

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Whatever brand you buy, avoid networked systems. Buy instruments that can function independently without an MFD. When the network fails you will be glad you did.

The latest failure was a B&G networked system. with three separate MFDs. Two days out of Hawaii the network went down, and the boat was left with no instruments. No autopilot, no GPS, no wind, no depth. Fortunately the AIS had a crude independent display. We relied on the binnacle compass, the masthead fly, and Navionics on my phone.

That is becoming either exceptionally difficult or fully impossible.

Raymarine wind, speed, and depth instruments I'm pretty sure are only available in n2k. You don't have to network them together, but the depth instrument is connected to the depth sender by a fully functional N2K network. Same with the wind. Pretty sure Garmin is the same way. I've not installed a recent autopilot, but most autopilots will function just fine connected to nothing. My Furuno chartplotter is lost without its own N2K network -- the boat came to me with a GPS antenna networked to the chartplotter -- again, a fully functional N2K Network with only an antenna and chart plotter.

The purity of independent completely isolated systems without a network is mostly a legacy concept.

[Bill O]

Since you are building from scratch, I'll throw in another vote for opencpn for the software package. Easily accepts many electronic chart formats and the platform is expandable for various peripheral electronics.

For example, we have a Raspberry pi as our base computer down below at our nav. station. Going into the Rpi we have feeds from our gps, depth, speed, temp., wind speed, rudder angle, AIS, autopilot and radar. Via wifi we get all that info to our tablet or phone in the cockpit. We love it.

It is a very powerful platform to build your system.

[FatBear]

Count me in the no networking club. On a 26 footer I would go with the basics: VHF with AIS, standalone GPS, with or without charting...

What does the size of the boat have to do with it? Aside from available space, of course. I thought the purpose of these electronics was to aid in navigation and to help keep the crew alive. A 26 footer needs to navigate every bit as much as a 50 footer and I do not agree that human life is more valuable aboard a large boat than a small one. (In fact, I can think of many instances where I might reverse that assumption!)

Almost none of us actually needs our boat or our electronics. These are discretionary hobbies. Even for those who live aboard it's a choice. Some people like to make their hobbies adventures, some people like to lavish funds on their hobbies, and I'd say we pretty much all approach our hobbies in our own way. So as long as the binnacle doesn't outweigh the keel, then I see nothing wrong with a 26 footer having a modern set of electronics.

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

However, outside the US, you have your choice of c-map and c-map. And in Canada, they're pretty awful.

You keep saying this, but comparing charts does not back this up. (Of course, the actual chartplotter settings must be appropriate.)

CMAP is definitely at least as good as Navionics here in western Canada, and comparison online of charts suggests the same for Eastern Canada. All similar, and certainly far from "awful" (though I definitely prefer CHS charts, as they and o-charts are the only ones truly "up-to-date").

For those interested, you can view charts for CMAP, Navionics, Aquamaps, even CHS (sortof), online, to compare charts:

CMAP: https://www.c-map.com/chartexplorer/
NAVIONICS: https://webapp.navionics.com/#boatin...y=%7BrarHzoplV
AQUAMAPS: https://www.aquamap.app/chart-viewer
CHS: https://e-nav.ccg-gcc.evouala.com/ap...n/950/embedded

[Robert_Pegasos]

Another vote for OpenCPN.

It's free and really, really good. So no harm in trying it first, and then maybe get an MFD if you don't like it (which I doubt).


An independent fishfinder rather than simple depth gauge would be my other advice. They're cheap enough, it is interesting to see what's underneath you and it's a huge help for finding an anchorage spot.


Networked NMEA 2000 instruments can be displayed on OpenCPN, and thats what I do for wind speed and direction. I don't have an opinion on whether this is an ideal arrangement or not.

[sailingharry]

Not sure which post you are referring to, but since my post a few up was the most recent to mention size I will assume mine.

You are 100% correct that entering a strange port in bad conditions requires the same navigation on a small boat as a big boat.

The difference is in the use case. Last year, we took our 43 ft into very poorly marked harbours in places I had never been before in conditions that were sometimes less than ideal. Our chart plotter was critical. But this year, we are sailing our home water. We never go out in bad weather, hardly even have to look at the chart plotter. Some years back I had a 19 ft boat with zero electronics. I didn't even bring the cell phone, too risky.

If OP is intending to take that boat offshore, two strange ports, in conditions and time of day that make it"interesting" then he absolutely needs a proper navigation system. There is a thread going here with a fellow who took his Alberg 30 around the world so people do it. Most people in sub 30 foot boats sail locally.

[Kettlewell]

What does the size of the boat have to do with it?

Cost, complexity, space, power consumption, personal preference. It is my pesonal opinion given as sincere advice. Others have different opinions.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by sv_pelagia

You keep saying this, but comparing charts does not back this up. (Of course, the actual chartplotter settings must be appropriate.)

CMAP is definitely at least as good as Navionics here in western Canada, and comparison online of charts suggests the same for Eastern Canada. All similar, and certainly far from "awful" (though I definitely prefer CHS charts, as they and o-charts are the only ones truly "up-to-date").]

It would seem that you might have a point. C-map as provided on their website is quite robust. Not as implemented by Furuno.

These pictures are of Great Jarvis Harbor. This is about 2/3 of the way east across the bottom of Newfoundland, roughly due north of the French islands.

The first picture is what a current version of c-map on my chartplotter looks like.

The second is the CHS chart. Very nice. Navionics is nearly identical.

Curiously, the third is c-map online. Wish my $500 chart for Furuno looked this good.

We anchored here. Navionics helped us pick a reasonable location to anchor. Note that while our chartplotter is over a decade old, the charts are the current charts and Furuno has confirmed the new systems display the same way.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mal Reynolds

Just get the B&G Triton package. It will likely be fine as I doubt you will be crossing oceans and can quickly get service/troubleshoot & repair/replace as needed. The Zeus3 is nice to display instrument data and control an AP, but I didn't care for the charting. I'm sure it would be fine and many, many yachts use it.

That said, for completeness of this thread, I fundamentally agree with Don Radcliffe if going offshore for longer periods.

However, if you are crossing oceans or going into high latitudes where you are far from assistance, I can't recommend NMEA2000 for navigation, radar, AIS, or autopilot function. Keep your systems separate, have backup plans and take spares.

Finally, commercial grade Furuno radars and plotters generally lasts 10 years. Yes they are more expensive but the longer service provides cost recovery. Icom commercial grade radios also, and are amazing with a good antenna setup.

I would respectfully offer a different point of view on NMEA2000 for offshore boats.


NMEA2000 is basically CANBUS, so is extremely robust, like military grade robust. If you build your network yourself and set it up yourself, so you know where everything is and how it works, and keep spare connectors, cables, and other bits on board, there won't be anything that can go wrong with it that you can't fix. A big advantage of an N2K network over separate freestanding systems is that the displays are not dedicated to any particular transducer or function, so the whole system is actually much more robust in case some device on the network fails. You can keep spare devices on board or even run redundant devices on the network simultaneously and switch between them on the fly (I have both my old compass and new compass on the network, for example).


It is possible for a failed device or connection to bring the whole network down -- this has happened to me, unfortunately -- but all you have to do is disconnect devices one by one until you isolate the problem.


NMEA2000 is really good.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

)It is possible for a failed device or connection to bring the whole network down -- this has happened to me, unfortunately -- but all you have to do is disconnect devices one by one until you isolate the problem.

This is a core tenant of n2k. Every single device must be directly connected to the backbone. This allows exactly this kind of troubleshooting.

Like all black and white absolutes, it has downsides I disagree with. My b&g Triton 1 displays allowed two (or more) to be chained together with a short jumper cable. The risk of course is that one display failure would take down all the displays. The new ones don't allow it. Despite the inconvenience, the philosophy is extremely sound. In a pure compliant N2K system, you can't even run a drop up to your cabin side and then with two t's feed two instruments, or run one drop up to your binnacle and feed your chart plotter and related instruments.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Not sure which post you are referring to, but since my post a few up was the most recent to mention size I will assume mine.

You are 100% correct that entering a strange port in bad conditions requires the same navigation on a small boat as a big boat.

The difference is in the use case. Last year, we took our 43 ft into very poorly marked harbours in places I had never been before in conditions that were sometimes less than ideal. Our chart plotter was critical. But this year, we are sailing our home water. We never go out in bad weather, hardly even have to look at the chart plotter. Some years back I had a 19 ft boat with zero electronics. I didn't even bring the cell phone, too risky.

If OP is intending to take that boat offshore, two strange ports, in conditions and time of day that make it"interesting" then he absolutely needs a proper navigation system. There is a thread going here with a fellow who took his Alberg 30 around the world so people do it. Most people in sub 30 foot boats sail locally.

I agree with this. A chart plotter at the helm -- a proper, dedicated, commercial one -- is a must in my book. Entering strange ports, especially at night, especially especially at night and in weather, is horrible without one. In my book radar is even more important, but on a boat that size maybe not desired by the OP.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

It would seem that you might have a point. C-map as provided on their website is quite robust. Not as implemented by Furuno.

These pictures are of Great Jarvis Harbor. This is about 2/3 of the way east across the bottom of Newfoundland, roughly due north of the French islands.

The first picture is what a current version of c-map on my chartplotter looks like.

Assume you've messed with all the Chart/Settings and so forth?

We don't have C-Map charts on our Furuno MFD, so can't compare... but I know there are a boatload of differences in look by selection all the various setting values...

-Chris

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

This is a core tenant of n2k. Every single device must be directly connected to the backbone. This allows exactly this kind of troubleshooting.

Like all black and white absolutes, it has downsides I disagree with. My b&g Triton 1 displays allowed two (or more) to be chained together with a short jumper cable. The risk of course is that one display failure would take down all the displays. The new ones don't allow it. Despite the inconvenience, the philosophy is extremely sound. In a pure compliant N2K system, you can't even run a drop up to your cabin side and then with two t's feed two instruments, or run one drop up to your binnacle and feed your chart plotter and related instruments.

Yes, but even if you have daisy chained some device the diagnostic method still works.



What's cool is that you can hot connect and disconnect devices -- no need to reboot the network -- and everything connects the same way with the same connectors. So if you have a network problem you can very quickly disconnect and reconnect in different configurations until you get it to work.



I think it's much superior to other ways of networking or running instruments on board. I can hardly even think of a downside of it.

[Robert_Pegasos]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

If OP is intending to take that boat offshore, two strange ports, in conditions and time of day that make it"interesting" then he absolutely needs a proper navigation system.

OpenCPN is a "proper navigation system"


In terms of harware quality you can opt run it on military grade computers, say HP elitebook series laptops. And have backup computers.



The software is open source and probably superior to commercial offerings.



The features are extensive. You can for example simultaneously display two windows with conventional charts on one panel and satellite images from Google Earth on the other. Radar images and AIS and other data can be superimposed.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Robert_Pegasos

OpenCPN is a "proper navigation system"

You misunderstood who I was responding to. I was defending the statement that a 26 ft boat probably doesn't need a chart plotter. Or even a laptop with opencpn. He probably sails locally in good weather. He probably knows the waters fairly well. OpenCPN or Navionics on his cell phone is all the complexity he needs.

But if he goes offshore, or goes in nasty weather, or comes into strange ports at night, then he needs a robust nav system in the cockpit that he can use while keeping one hand on the tiller. Something by garmin, or raymarine, or a military grade display running opencpn. I think any of those are massive overkill for his likely use case.