Advice on instruments

[oceanpilot]

Hi everyone,

I am restoring a Morris Frances 26 and have reached the point that I need to begin instrument installation. My goal is to begin with basic instruments (depth/speed/temp and wind) and buy something that would be compatible as I expand later to a chart plotter. I have used the Raymarine Axiom system on two long ocean passages on other boats and dislike it intensely, so options are either B&G or Garmin (are there others that are viable?).

So, the question is what product family, and what basic instruments/sensors to purchase now that will integrate easily later.

Appreciate any advice!

[stevead]

I posted this in a previous thread. May be useful.

[cr180]

Have had both Garmin and B&G. Both function well. But Garmin no longer used Explorer Charts for Bahamas and generally does not interface with other vendors.

[donradcliffe]

There is no clear winner when it comes to boat instruments. I have had multiple failures on Raymarine, Garmin, and B&G. The old Signet and Datamarine systems are more reliable, but parts are getting harder to find.

One consideration is whether there are existing holes in the boat, and are they round or square.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by oceanpilot

... so options are either B&G or Garmin (are there others that are viable?).

Furuno, maybe... but I've read B&G is best for sailing. (No insight why.)

Many have said over the years that Garmin units are very intuitive... but I've not found that to be the case with our Garmin MFD. Our Furuno MFD seems much more intuitive, to me...

FWIW, Furuno offers charting choices, including C-Map, which in turn apparently include Explorer charts for the Bahamas. If that matters. (We just use NOAA raster and vector charts on the Furuno MFD, including free annual updates. Garmin charges for annual updates on the Garmin MFD.)

-Chris

[donradcliffe]

Whatever brand you buy, avoid networked systems. Buy instruments that can function independently without an MFD. When the network fails you will be glad you did.

The latest failure was a B&G networked system. with three separate MFDs. Two days out of Hawaii the network went down, and the boat was left with no instruments. No autopilot, no GPS, no wind, no depth. Fortunately the AIS had a crude independent display. We relied on the binnacle compass, the masthead fly, and Navionics on my phone.

[FatBear]

Everything breaks. Maybe the real lesson is to have some sort of backup - like you did.

[stevead]

Whatever brand you buy, avoid networked systems. Buy instruments that can function independently without an MFD. When the network fails you will be glad you did.

Was that a NMEA 2000 based system or B&G Fastnet (Ethernet) based system?

I appreciate that it must have been a worrying situation, but if it was a NMEA 2000 network, I can't believe that all three MFD's and instruments were incapable of operating and that you weren't able to isolate the fault.

In a NMEA 2000 network, instrument displays can display data sourced from depth, speed & wind transducers without a MFD present. The only thing that may be lacking is position data from the MFD's built in GPS, but a simple NMEA 2000 GPS receiver would provide redundancy.

As the OP has a small yacht, I would suggest a basic NMEA 2000 network with depth, speed & wind transducer, and one or two NMEA 2000 instrument displays. As the NMEA 2000 messages for depth, speed and wind are standardized, you can mix-n-match different vendors, with the proviso that some transducers may require calibration and usually that can only be performed using the same vendor's displays.

If budgeting, you may be able to find some inexpensive second hand displays on ebay.

[Mal Reynolds]

Just get the B&G Triton package. It will likely be fine as I doubt you will be crossing oceans and can quickly get service/troubleshoot & repair/replace as needed. The Zeus3 is nice to display instrument data and control an AP, but I didn't care for the charting. I'm sure it would be fine and many, many yachts use it.

That said, for completeness of this thread, I fundamentally agree with Don Radcliffe if going offshore for longer periods.

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Whatever brand you buy, avoid networked systems. Buy instruments that can function independently without an MFD. When the network fails you will be glad you did.

The latest failure was a B&G networked system. with three separate MFDs. Two days out of Hawaii the network went down, and the boat was left with no instruments. No autopilot, no GPS, no wind, no depth. Fortunately the AIS had a crude independent display. We relied on the binnacle compass, the masthead fly, and Navionics on my phone.

However, if you are crossing oceans or going into high latitudes where you are far from assistance, I can't recommend NMEA2000 for navigation, radar, AIS, or autopilot function. Keep your systems separate, have backup plans and take spares.

Finally, commercial grade Furuno radars and plotters generally lasts 10 years. Yes they are more expensive but the longer service provides cost recovery. Icom commercial grade radios also, and are amazing with a good antenna setup.

[hjohnson]

I’ve got an Ericson 27, and am running a Garmin package for my sailing instrumentation. It’s the package with separate monochrome LCDs for wind data and other data, and it’s the spiritual successor to Silva Nexus instruments (which it replaced). It’s NMEA 2000 based, and has integrated nicely with every other N2k device I’ve thrown at it. My autopilot can steer to wind, my AIS (Vesper XB8000) spits out all the data via wifi, it picks up the engine RPMs from my Wakespeed alternator regulator, and heading/navigational data via the Vesper from my Furuno compass and iPad respectively.

We use iPads and/or our phones as chartplotter and have them integrated into the boat’s sensors. It’s lovely.

[donradcliffe]

On a previous trip from Hawaii, the B&G NMEA2000 network on that boat also went down about every 3-4 hours with an intermittent problem. Fortunately, I had my IT guy along on that trip, and after 2 days he was able to isolate the problem to the barometer. He was also along on this summer's second sail from Hawaii on another boat with a B&G system. We were having trouble with the instrument lighting, so we cycled the power on the entire instrument circuit. The Zeus froze on power up, and I was not happy because that was my AIS display. IT guy was able to get deep into the Zeus menus through the boat laptop and get it to reboot properly.

On the boat with the dead N2K network this summer I asked if the owner could get an expert to help me troubleshoot the system at sea. It turns out that they had had two instrument experts work on the system. They hated each other and neither would help troubleshoot something that might have been the fault of the other.

[more]

Originally Posted by Mal Reynolds

Just get the B&G Triton package. It will likely be fine as I doubt you will be crossing oceans and can quickly get service/troubleshoot & repair/replace as needed. The Zeus3 is nice to display i.

B&G Triton,Simrad,Garmin instruments is not serviceable,repair .some sensor posible repair,service. but best and only good repair is buy new.Old raymarine possible repair whit couple people in world.

[Fintry]

Originally Posted by stevead

Was that a NMEA 2000 based system or B&G Fastnet (Ethernet) based system?

I appreciate that it must have been a worrying situation, but if it was a NMEA 2000 network, I can't believe that all three MFD's and instruments were incapable of operating and that you weren't able to isolate the fault.

In a NMEA 2000 network, instrument displays can display data sourced from depth, speed & wind transducers without a MFD present. The only thing that may be lacking is position data from the MFD's built in GPS, but a simple NMEA 2000 GPS receiver would provide redundancy.

As the OP has a small yacht, I would suggest a basic NMEA 2000 network with depth, speed & wind transducer, and one or two NMEA 2000 instrument displays. As the NMEA 2000 messages for depth, speed and wind are standardized, you can mix-n-match different vendors, with the proviso that some transducers may require calibration and usually that can only be performed using the same vendor's displays.

If budgeting, you may be able to find some inexpensive second hand displays on ebay.

Agreed. With NMEA 2000 (N2K), if any one piece goes down, you can simply unplug it and go on. In the last 20,000 miles on Fintry and Morning Light I have not had anything go down.



I have been a Furuno user for 30 years, after visiting both Gloucester and Fairhaven / New Bedford and seeing the vast majority of the hundreds of fishing boats using Furuno.


With that said, I like the Maretron DSM410 for a 4" general purpose display. The Furuno DST800 provides depth, STW, and water temperature and simply plugs into the NMEA 2000 (N2K) network.


I would encourage you to get a Class B AIS, but if you don't, any puck GPS will plug into the network.


Jim


Sweetwater -- Swan 57 sloop on which we circumnavigated 1995-98
Fintry -- x Royal Navy Fleet Tender -- owned 2003-2022, 18,000 miles including trans-Atlantic The Fleet Tender Fintry
Morning Light -- Webbers Cove 42 single screw trawler 2021- 23
?? Going back to sailing when Morning Light is sold.

[Kettlewell]

Count me in the no networking club. On a 26 footer I would go with the basics: VHF with AIS, standalone GPS, with or without charting (I personally love free OpenCPN on a laptop and my phone with free charts), and a fishfinder. I always have paper charts too and a hand bearing compass and plotters. I could easily skip any wind instruments. I prefer to judge the wind by looking at the direction, using telltales on the shrouds, how the boat is sailing, what the seas look like. Plus, I've never been able to keep any masthead wind stuff working for long before a seagull, an osprey, or a cormorant takes them out. I prefer a standard fishfinder to a regular depthsounder as the bottom contour can be very useful in shallow water, and it can give you some idea of what the bottom is composed of which helps with anchoring. In my experience fishfinders are very reliable too, and much cheaper than sailboat stuff.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by ranger58sb

FWIW, Furuno offers charting choices, including C-Map, which in turn apparently include Explorer charts for the Bahamas. If that matters. (We just use NOAA raster and vector charts on the Furuno MFD, including free annual updates. Garmin charges for annual updates on the Garmin MFD.)



-Chris

In the US, Furuno does support free updates of both NOAA raster and vector charts.

However, outside the US, you have your choice of c-map and c-map. And in Canada, they're pretty awful. But from what I understand, they are pretty good in the Bahamas.

But
Your boat is very small. Adding a lot of stuff can rapidly become a challenge physically. Well I am strongly in the purpose-built MFD camp, your application might be well served by using a cell phone. If you are mostly day sailing out of your home port, a chart platter may not be a good return on investment.