Are there any B&G/Simrad/Navico owners without troubles?

[rcassano]

From experience, I can tell you that the "Rudder Response Failure" error message can also come from a drive system (hydraulic cylinder) installed without complying with the strict geometry as set out in the manual. In my case the professional installer arrived at the boat and realized he had a drive cylinder too long for the space so he bolted it in on an angle so it would fit. This wrong angle looked ok, but the added stress on the hydraulics made the system slow. When the drive system could not answer to the course computer quick enough the error message was a chronic, "Rudder Response Failure". Once the drive arm was replaced with a shorter, fatter cylinder and adjustable speed pump all was outstanding.

Take another look at the angle the drive arm intersects with the rudder quadrant or AP tiller arm and be sure it is correct (slightly less then 90 degrees when wheel is centered).

[arisatx]

Originally Posted by muttskie

By the way, after replacing the RF25N rudder sensor with the RF300 version, I went for another test sail.

Everything worked perfectly for about an hour... Then it all started again!
"Rudder Response Failure" repeatedly and within seconds of engaging the autopilot

Reset autopilot, successfully performed commissioning steps.
"Rudder Response Failure" within seconds of engaging autopilot. Arrrrgggh!

It's enough to put one off sailing.

Bill:

A few thoughts:

1) When you get the Rudder Response Failure, does the wheel still turn? (is the check valve not closing / solenoid not actuating?).

2) Also have you tried a dockside reinstall? I came across this Simrad TSB verbiage a while ago:

"Technical Bulletin
ESTB1017 - AP24&AP28 with Jefa Drives


The Simrad autopilots AP24 and AP28 are designed to offer advanced and precise steering with a gentle `human' rudder action for small course corrections and immediate powerful action for large and demanding course changes. In combination with Jefa rudder drive units this ensures the optimum steering at any time and in any sea condition.

The autopilot and drive unit are automatically aligned and the power values, including extra margin, are stored in the system during the Dock side / Installation Setup. However, after some time of use, the steering system may require more power and the pilot will at random indicate "Rudder response failure" (or error code 26 in other instruments)

The recommended remedy is a simple "re-alignment", so the drive unit again gets sufficient power. The required operation is the standard rudder test, which is performed at the dock side.

Press MENU > Installation > Rudder drive >Rudder test.

The autopilot will now re-align to the drive unit requirement and automatically store the new settings.

NB! Before performing the rudder test,please make sure that the drive/rudder moves when operating the port and starboard buttons in Stby/NFU mode. If the rudder does not move, a problem within the drive unit or the connection is likely to be the fault."

3) I agree with rcassano. Make sure the physical install is rock solid. I took my bronze tiller arm to a machine shop to have it properly bored to the 12mm pin size that the rod end bearing expected. Previously there was just an ill fitting bolt that I'm sure didn't help my AP performance.

[muttskie]

Navico is well aware of my problems. They have authorized a local marine electronics shop to spend a couple of hours trouble shooting.

The DD15 drive unit was installed precisely as specified by Jefa. The tiller arm is the one specified by Jefa, as is the drag link, and the angles are per specification. In fact, I had to use the Jefa/Simrad drive because it was the only drive that fit in the space adjacent to the rudder shaft.

In yesterdays conversation with B&G/Simrad tech support, the focus was beginning to shift to the actual drive unit. I was told that, though drive unit troubles are not common, particularly with the DD15, they are not unheard of.

I am going to review the entire drive unit installation, angles and anything else I can examine. Perhaps I am missing something.

racassano, the drive is an electric unit made by Jefa and rebranded by Simrad as a DD15 ( Jefa direct drive unit type I ). Your comments about the angles are quite on point, though. The shop that built the mount bracket for the drive unit insists that they were very careful about complying with the Jefa installation specifications, but we all know how that can go. I am going to review the entire physical installation.

Ted, immediately after the alarm signals, the tiller ( mine is a tiller boat ) is still engaged. As soon as I touch the tiller though, it disengages.
I did an autopilot reset after the "rudder response failure" messages started during the test sail. I was able to accomplish the dockside and autotune steps successfully while still out on the water. But I had the same failure messages immediately.
The process described in the Technical Bulletin is different though. The mention of using the port and starboard buttons is the first time I have seen that. I'll check it out on my next visit to the boat.

Thank you both. You have given me some very good information to follow up on.

[muttskie]

Originally Posted by arisatx

Bill:


2) Also have you tried a dockside reinstall? I came across this Simrad TSB verbiage a while ago:

"Technical Bulletin
ESTB1017 - AP24&AP28 with Jefa Drives


The Simrad autopilots AP24 and AP28 are designed to offer advanced and precise steering with a gentle `human' rudder action for small course corrections and immediate powerful action for large and demanding course changes. In combination with Jefa rudder drive units this ensures the optimum steering at any time and in any sea condition.

The autopilot and drive unit are automatically aligned and the power values, including extra margin, are stored in the system during the Dock side / Installation Setup. However, after some time of use, the steering system may require more power and the pilot will at random indicate "Rudder response failure" (or error code 26 in other instruments)

The recommended remedy is a simple "re-alignment", so the drive unit again gets sufficient power. The required operation is the standard rudder test, which is performed at the dock side.

Press MENU > Installation > Rudder drive >Rudder test.

The autopilot will now re-align to the drive unit requirement and automatically store the new settings.

NB! Before performing the rudder test,please make sure that the drive/rudder moves when operating the port and starboard buttons in Stby/NFU mode. If the rudder does not move, a problem within the drive unit or the connection is likely to be the fault."

3) I agree with rcassano. Make sure the physical install is rock solid. I took my bronze tiller arm to a machine shop to have it properly bored to the 12mm pin size that the rod end bearing expected. Previously there was just an ill fitting bolt that I'm sure didn't help my AP performance.

Ted, Thank you so much for this information! I did the test described and the drive unit failed it three straight times.
I called B&G/Simrad tech support and discussed it. They agreed to send me a new drive unit. If all of this time it has been a faulty drive unit, I'll have a cow! It's very funny that during countless conversations with tech support, the Technical Bulletin was never mentioned to me! It took a lucky discovery by you, passed on to me, to focus on the actual drive unit. I was told today that the evaluation of the drive by the service center confirmed a fault.
WTF! I have been struggling with this issue for many months, taking out and replacing every component, dozens and dozens of hours of work, testing, more work...
To say I am not satisfied with the support I have received from Navico is a huge understatement. Had just one of the many tech support people I have spoken with mentioned testing the drive per the Tech Bulletin countless hours of work and frustration could have been prevented.

Of course, if I put in the new drive unit and it still doesn't work, I don't know what I'll do.

[xeon_tsd]

Hope that fixes your issue. I have a B&G system that I just installed. Radar, GPS, MFD, wind, triducer, and two tritons... all worked fine just plug and pl(r)ay.

[arisatx]

Originally Posted by muttskie

Ted, Thank you so much for this information! I did the test described and the drive unit failed it three straight times.
I called B&G/Simrad tech support and discussed it. They agreed to send me a new drive unit. If all of this time it has been a faulty drive unit, I'll have a cow! It's very funny that during countless conversations with tech support, the Technical Bulletin was never mentioned to me! It took a lucky discovery by you, passed on to me, to focus on the actual drive unit. I was told today that the evaluation of the drive by the service center confirmed a fault.
WTF! I have been struggling with this issue for many months, taking out and replacing every component, dozens and dozens of hours of work, testing, more work...
To say I am not satisfied with the support I have received from Navico is a huge understatement. Had just one of the many tech support people I have spoken with mentioned testing the drive per the Tech Bulletin countless hours of work and frustration could have been prevented.

Of course, if I put in the new drive unit and it still doesn't work, I don't know what I'll do.

Bill:
I'm glad that helped. You will enjoy having a bullet proof AP setup, once you get it sorted out. Keep us updated on your progress!

PS - love the Crealock 37!

[muttskie]

Update.
Anyone following this thread might be interested in the fact that the replacement DD-15 drive unit appears to have fixed the problems with my autopilot.
The drive was replaced under warranty by Navico after many months of problems, troubleshooting, component replacements, etc., etc... Navico, while slow to respond and not so forthcoming with technical help, did finally replace every component of the system. The final replaced item was the actual drive unit and this proved to be the reason for the problems.
It was a comment about a Technical Bulletin made by 'arisatx' here on CF ( thanks again Ted! ) that proved to be the decisive bit of information. The Technical Bulletin described a test of the drive unit that my drive unit failed repeatedly. This discovery motivated Navico to replace the drive unit, which then cured my autopilot problem.
My amazement, and profound disappointment, is the fact that Navico Technical Support never mentioned this Technical Bulletin to me during the dozens of phone calls, or emails, that had gone on between us during the many months of trying to resolve the issue.
I must assume that the training of the Tech Support people is lacking. While they were very willing to replace parts, there was no real investigation into why the problem persisted. Had one of the Tech Support guys asked me to perform this specific test ( about a known issue with the DD-15 drive unit ) months of work, and many replaced, expensive, components, could have been avoided. Seems to be an expensive way to run a Technical Support division of a company. I hope my experience is not representative of the norm, for everyone else's sake.
Thanks to all who offered advice, particularly Ted.

[arisatx]

Originally Posted by muttskie

Update.
Anyone following this thread might be interested in the fact that the replacement DD-15 drive unit appears to have fixed the problems with my autopilot.
The drive was replaced under warranty by Navico after many months of problems, troubleshooting, component replacements, etc., etc... Navico, while slow to respond and not so forthcoming with technical help, did finally replace every component of the system. The final replaced item was the actual drive unit and this proved to be the reason for the problems.
It was a comment about a Technical Bulletin made by 'arisatx' here on CF ( thanks again Ted! ) that proved to be the decisive bit of information. The Technical Bulletin described a test of the drive unit that my drive unit failed repeatedly. This discovery motivated Navico to replace the drive unit, which then cured my autopilot problem.
My amazement, and profound disappointment, is the fact that Navico Technical Support never mentioned this Technical Bulletin to me during the dozens of phone calls, or emails, that had gone on between us during the many months of trying to resolve the issue.
I must assume that the training of the Tech Support people is lacking. While they were very willing to replace parts, there was no real investigation into why the problem persisted. Had one of the Tech Support guys asked me to perform this specific test ( about a known issue with the DD-15 drive unit ) months of work, and many replaced, expensive, components, could have been avoided. Seems to be an expensive way to run a Technical Support division of a company. I hope my experience is not representative of the norm, for everyone else's sake.
Thanks to all who offered advice, particularly Ted.

Bill:

Happy to help and happy it's solved. We have been enjoying our now rock solid Simrad AP over this past season on our trip out of the Great Lakes and down the eastern seaboard. Can't imagine doing it w/o a reliable AP.