Backstay antenna length decision

[derfy]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Your math is way off, much more than 10%. You ignored my comment on shortening factor earlier so let me try with a citation so you can learn this from Wikipedia (it’s called the velocity factor): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_factor

Thanks Jedi.


Which Velocity Factor would you recommend to use from this table? They all seem related to propagation various transmission lines and cables, not antenna elements in air.



Radio guys are fond of using 95% Vf for dipoles, with stipulations about height above ground and element diameter.



Backstays are monopoles with a counterpoise and really fat wire. This same factor is often assumed, rightly or not. Hence the formula Freq (MHz)=234/feet for 1/4-wave monopole.



If I use that, my previous Mhz numbers are 5% too high.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by derfy

Thanks Jedi.


Which Velocity Factor would you recommend to use from this table? They all seem related to propagation various transmission lines and cables, not antenna elements in air.



Radio guys are fond of using 95% Vf for dipoles, with stipulations about height above ground and element diameter.



Backstays are monopoles with a counterpoise and really fat wire. This same factor is often assumed, rightly or not. Hence the formula Freq (MHz)=234/feet for 1/4-wave monopole.



If I use that, my previous Mhz numbers are 5% too high.

It’s impossible to get right as there is a combination of materials and it’s not in open space etc. The only way to do this is by using an antenna analyzer to measure and adapt.

I recommend that instead of all this you try to buy a SGC 230 auto tuner. You just connect what you have and are done. This means you can first just connect the AH4 tuner you have and see if that works... if not, score an SGC. They work on any radio.

[Brian.D]

One more antenna you might want to consider. You should have the real estate available for a 1/2 wave dipole for 14300KHz. That is the Maritime Mobile Net frequency. Don't have to have it up all the time but just in case.

WA6CCA's Vertical Dipole

Good luck.

[continuouswave]

Originally Posted by waterman46

...there is no way for you to accurately compute the frequency of [a antenna ofhalf-]wavelength presented to your tuner, given all the physical surroundings...

This is an excellent point and is particularly appropriate for a sailboat with many conductive surfaces in the masts and rigging that will be very close to the radiating element of a backstay antenna.

ASIDE: from my now quite old memory, as I recall, one of the reasons that the military paid for the development of what is now known as the Numerical Electromagnetics Code (NEC) for analysis of antennas was to be able to better predict the behavior of shipboard antennas. Cf.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numeri...magnetics_Code

Therefore, by using NEC one COULD make a very good prediction of antenna resonance for a sailboat installation, but only if a really good model description that took into account the many influences of the rigging and the connection to the sea for the hull was given as the input data.

[ka4wja]

Richard,
Nothing much wrong with a "rope-tenna", whether home built or store-bought....
Except as you point out it can interfere with the sail and/or backstay....and of course is one piece to have hanging there....\
(and as I mentioned earlier, using a thin copper wire does raise the input impedance when you arrive at a 1/2-wavelength end-fed...)
So, using the big SS rigging wire has a few advantages....
And, as I've been trying make clear, the exact length is not critical here....
(remember we are making a compromise antenna....one that needs to work 24/7/365, in all weather conditions, etc....from roughly 2mhz thru 30mhz....and if fed with a good remote tuner/coupler, like Icom or SGC, etc., the length isn't critical)



Now, as for your other question, for me...

Originally Posted by Topspin

@John, KA4WJA: I would be highly interested in your concept of a <5$ counterpoise. would you please elaborate that a bit!
-Richard (VK4WRS)

If you look at these stickies (that are right at the top of the Cruiser's Forum Marine Electronics page), as well as a couple posts in the "KISS" thread, you'll see all the answers to your questions....

{the very first post in this first "sticky" has most of the info needed (as well as post #55 in this first sticky....but if more detail/info is desired, it is all there in that sticky as well as in the next sticky....and of course the beaten-to-death KISS thread! }


HF-SSB Radio, Proper Installation Tips/Techniques, etc.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tc-198305.html





Marine SSB Stuff (how-to better use / proeprly-install SSB, & troubleshoot RFI, etc.)


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tc-133496.html

In addition to this sticky in general, please look at post #89:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-133496-6.html
My apologies for the links that don't work anymore! (blame the SSCA!)

Although not really on-topic here, I now see that tinypc has deleted all of my detailed spectral scans of random wire radials and the KISS (I do have some saved, so I will try to post 'em if I can). And fyi, since the SSCA decided to turn management over to a professional management company and they wanted to "protect their investment", the SSCA board took all the helpful info / advice freely given by sailors, members, commodores, and rear commodores (like myself), as well as non-members, and other sailors/cruisers worldwide for decades, and made all that freely given info "private" and restricted to members only....while my disgust for what has become of what was once a nice organization is hard to conceal, I have scrupulously not made a public fuss about it....(btw, when I asked them to either allow public access to the 1000's of public posts that I made over the years, or simply remove all of them from their servers, they threaten me with legal action....after I got pissed and threatened them back, they gave me 90 days of access to "inspect" and copy what I wanted.....but, frankly by then I was so turned off by their weasel-like behavior and the fact that I have elderly family that needed my care more than my fellow sailors, so I just walked away like a wimp)

The reason I mention all of this it to drive home a point: All this important info, and dozens of hours of tests, etc. on just this one small subject is now in the hands of the SSCA, and they use what I posted and what others post to lure new members, but don't really care about sailors / cruisers other than their members (if they did, they would allow all of you to read/see what I spent days/weeks compiling for ALL my fellow sailors!).....so, when reading all of this here on Cruiser's Forum, take a moment to say "THANKS" to Cruiser's Forum, and even if some ads bother you, please just accept that we've got it pretty darn good here! }


Please read post #165 in this thread...

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-56551-11.html

And, post #166 here...

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-56551-12.html


A very detailed and direct answer to your question on how to make a <$5 counterpoise (actually what I wrote was an "artificial counterpoise") is there in all those stickies, threads, and posts....but, to be clear this is not a substitute for a proper antenna ground (such as a direct sea-water connection, using the sea water as your primary antenna ground), but rather an improved and cheaper version of the "KISS" (snake oil ground).

Please note this not the place for a discussion of HF antenna grounds (the above stickies and threads are), as this was a discussion about what length to make your backstay....so, please read them over for all the details...


But, in brief (very brief):

--- grab some copper wire....of any size you can find
--- cut 3 or 4 pieces to random lengths (of between 12' and 35')
--- crimp one end of each of those pieces of wire into one common ring terminal

--- connect this ring terminal to the ground lug of your remote antenna tuner/coupler
--- toss the other ends of those wires in your lazarette / bilge, scattered around as best you can, but not critical


And, viola....you now have built an artificial counterpoise for your HF antenna system that actually works better than the KISS-SSB-Ground device.....I did both lab tests and real-world tests that prove it (and posted those results, dozens and dozens of scans, and antenna current readings)....tested for resonance of the "supposed 'tuned' radial systems", tested antenna current, etc. as well as real-world on-air tests....and found a few "random lengths of wire" had better and more resonances that the KISS, and produced a bit more antenna current...

Of course, there was significantly more antenna current (about 4 to 5 times more) when a direct sea-water connection was used as the antenna ground (which is to be expected)....but, the point here wasn't to say you can make a great antenna ground for $5, but rather than you can make an artificial counterpoise that is better than the KISS, for $5 or less....
(heck, if you have some scrap wire or find some scrap wire in a dumpster/trash bin, this entire artificial counterpoise is damn near free!)



Okay, I think this has drifted this thread far enough afield, yes?

So, to sum up: All the answers are there in those stickies and their links (some will lead you to that old KISS thread)....all you need to do is click on the stickies and read 'em.

Fair winds.

John

[ka4wja]

In addition to my earlier comment to read over what Nick (s/v Jedi) wrote, and my consistent referrals to read the darn stickies ('cuz that what they are there for), I also like what waterman says here....while I might have some slight variations....I like what he wrote...

And, fyi, waterman and everyone else with further questions, please go an read those stickies.....the answers are there....

Originally Posted by waterman46

Voice of Experience Here. Wow, you are seriously overthinking this thing. Why do you say you will not be able to transmit on so many frequencies you listed?

I am an electrical engineer too, and I know the temptation is to try to apply any and all knowledge you have, to such a thorny problem. But I have finally overcome that in this case because there are just too many unknown and unknowable variables.

In the first place, your tuner is capable of tuning almost anything not exactly on a half wavelength or a complete short. Don't worry - it will work very will on 95% of 2 to 30 MHz.

In the second place, there is no way for you to accurately compute the frequency of 1/2 wavelength presented to your tuner, given all the physical surroundings (the rest of the rig, the ground system, the capacitive coupling to the hull in the lead-in).

HOWEVER it is important to have as long a backstay antenna as you can manage, given that you want good output on the lower end of the HF band. Especially with the horrible sunspot cycle we now have. But keep the top of the antenna a bit away from the top of the mast, so put the upper insulator about 4 feet down from the top of the backstay. On the lower end, you don't want salt spray to short out the insulator, so keep that one about 8 feet above the waterline.

That's it, no hassle, just do it! BTW, pay close attention to the method used to attach antenna to backstay wire. Dis-similar metals, lots of weather, etc. I wrap it up in rigging tape but still don't trust it. Maybe someone on the forum can answer that issue.

Fair winds.

John

[ka4wja]

Geezze....such a long running discussion about a non-critical spec?

Bottom line here for derfy, and everyone else:

The length of your backstay antenna is NOT critical...

The long-established standard is 40' to 45' long....now-a-days the usual recommendation is 40' - 65'....


The longer lengths (> 45') can be advantageous for operating on the lower HF bands (from 1.8mhz/2mhz thru 7mhz/8mhz).....lengths shorter than 40' can be advantageous for operating on the higher HF bands (above 20mhz)....

But, now with low sunspot numbers (and with almost all maritime comms being on 12mhz and below, and a majority of cruising nets on 4mhz thru 8mhz), making a recommendation for a backstay of 40' - 65' in length is, in my opinion, normal!



Fair winds...

John

[derfy]

Originally Posted by Brian.D

One more antenna you might want to consider. You should have the real estate available for a 1/2 wave dipole for 14300KHz. That is the Maritime Mobile Net frequency. Don't have to have it up all the time but just in case.

WA6CCA's Vertical Dipole

Good luck.

Thanks Brian,
A dipole has a lot going for it. A very good suggestion I will consider.

[derfy]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

Geezze....such a long running discussion about a non-critical spec?

Bottom line here for derfy, and everyone else:

The length of your backstay antenna is NOT critical...

The long-established standard is 40' to 45' long....now-a-days the usual recommendation is 40' - 65'....


The longer lengths (> 45') can be advantageous for operating on the lower HF bands (from 1.8mhz/2mhz thru 7mhz/8mhz).....lengths shorter than 40' can be advantageous for operating on the higher HF bands (above 20mhz)....

But, now with low sunspot numbers (and with almost all maritime comms being on 12mhz and below, and a majority of cruising nets on 4mhz thru 8mhz), making a recommendation for a backstay of 40' - 65' in length is, in my opinion, normal!



Fair winds...

John

Thanks John for the excellent references. Antenna design seems to be all about grounding - so I appreciate your bringing it up. I know ground has been covered at length in CF.

I read the Icom whitepaper on hf grounding on a boat. 100 square feet of copper sheet below the waterline (but inside the hull), connected to as many thru hull fittings as possible, connected with flat copper conductors to both the tuner and the radio chassis, and ideally connected to the lead in the keel. That's a pretty tall order for most boats. They claim that capacitive coupling thru the hull is the main rf conductive path to ground. Maybe.

From my previous life as a circuit designer, I would have to run the impedance numbers to be convinced that 100 sq ft, thru an inch of GRP dielectric, is a very good capacitor or low impedance at just a few Mhz. I suppose a good copper bottom paint would help - but that is getting phased out of the US waters.

I plan to try the KISS (since I have it already - else I would have made one), and do the "Icom Ground" if need be.

I also thought of throwing in a ground connection at the tuner (in addition to the KISS) to my rather extensive stern arch and dinghy davit frame - at the risk of making it a little "rf hot" when transmitting. Just adding more random-length metal to work against the backstay monopole element. The lifelines would also get into the act.

Any thoughts about that?

Derfy

[Brian.D]

The random length you want is in the sea under you. Really, read Gordon West's paper on SeaWater Grounding. Unless all the thru hulls are bonded together, do not run separate grounds to them. You will end up creating a ground loop and that will be a very bad thing for the other electronics in the boat. Use the thru hull closest to the tuner and bond to that. You might need to add some decoupling capacitors just in case. It doesn't hurt. As for the KISS, go ahead and build one. Having two or more also will not hurt. JMHO

One more thing to remember. When you start your testing we are still in a low end of the cycle so results may not be spectacular. Again, JMHO

https://briandphoto.net/WA6CCA/Sea.pdf

[roverhi]

Have not had a backstay antenna longer than 40' on either of the boats with a HF radio. Worked both 40 and 20 meter bands with 20 meter contacts half way around the world. As others have said, get an SGC 230 tuner install your backstay insulator so you get the longest length.

Notice I said insulator. You only need one at the top if your stay is not connected to anything other than the chainplate at the bottom. Just be sure no one is hanging onto the wire when you are transmitting.

[Topspin]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

Richard,
Nothing much wrong with a "rope-tenna", whether home built or store-bought....
Except as you point out it can interfere with the sail and/or backstay....and of course is one piece to have hanging there....\
(and as I mentioned earlier, using a thin copper wire does raise the input impedance when you arrive at a 1/2-wavelength end-fed...)
So, using the big SS rigging wire has a few advantages....
And, as I've been trying make clear, the exact length is not critical here....
(remember we are making a compromise antenna....one that needs to work 24/7/365, in all weather conditions, etc....from roughly 2mhz thru 30mhz....and if fed with a good remote tuner/coupler, like Icom or SGC, etc., the length isn't critical)



Now, as for your other question, for me...

If you look at these stickies (that are right at the top of the Cruiser's Forum Marine Electronics page), as well as a couple posts in the "KISS" thread, you'll see all the answers to your questions....

{the very first post in this first "sticky" has most of the info needed (as well as post #55 in this first sticky....but if more detail/info is desired, it is all there in that sticky as well as in the next sticky....and of course the beaten-to-death KISS thread! }


HF-SSB Radio, Proper Installation Tips/Techniques, etc.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tc-198305.html

Dear OM John,

thank you for the answer and in the name of all hams out there thank you so much for all the great work you did on this subject.



55, 73,



-Richard (VK4WRS, former DK9WR)

[derfy]

Originally Posted by Brian.D

The random length you want is in the sea under you. Really, read Gordon West's paper on SeaWater Grounding. Unless all the thru hulls are bonded together, do not run separate grounds to them. You will end up creating a ground loop and that will be a very bad thing for the other electronics in the boat. Use the thru hull closest to the tuner and bond to that. You might need to add some decoupling capacitors just in case. It doesn't hurt. As for the KISS, go ahead and build one. Having two or more also will not hurt. JMHO

One more thing to remember. When you start your testing we are still in a low end of the cycle so results may not be spectacular. Again, JMHO

https://briandphoto.net/WA6CCA/Sea.pdf

Thanks Brian and also John for these great references.

Gorden West's article is very persuasive. He certainly has a lot of credibility.

I hope you don't mind if I ask a few things about his advice to just use a bronze thru-hull? [WARNING to READERS - more "over-thinking" geek babble is found below]

...Since no capacitor is being constucted in this - Gordon recommends instead to build a low-resistor to the sea, connected to the tuner with low-inductance foil. He is relying on the resistance between the foil and the sea, via the thru-hull, to be low.

Q: Are you using this? If so ...

Q: Have you ever measured the dc ohms from your tuner ground to the sea? Just curious. I am might try checking that on my boat from a thru hull. I was always curious about that.

Q: How many ohms?

Q: Is is consistent?

Q: Might the resistance change over time? Gordon cleaned his bronze before attaching the foil, stipulating this was very critical. My bronze has lots of oxidation. What keeps this oxidation from coming back? Conductive grease, maybe? Just asking...it was not mentioned.

Q: Does this work in brachish water, like the Chesapeake or here in coastal NC? With green slime on the bottom? Unfortunately I am not often in clean seawater with a clean boat bottom.

Q: Since the thru-hull is aft, is there an issue when at sea in steep chop? All my deep thru hulls are bonded- which is why I ask.

Q: How is dc galvanic corrosion avoided? A dc loop will exist from our single thru-hull rf ground, back thru the tuner ground and coax shield to the radio's green wire and then back down to bonded ground and other thru-hulls. Will galvanic corrosion degrade the ground resistance or other connections is this loop, or eat the thru-hull? Is there a blocking cap somewhere? Maybe there should be...just asking...it was not mentioned.

Q: The above-mentioned dc loop is also an ac loop, likely very resonant at hf freqs. It will be about 40 ft long. How is this loop broken? I intend to use some common mode ferrite cores on my coax and tuner cable to avoid this, and on my radio power and ground. It could work... the material I chose is pretty lossy at a few Mhz.

Sorry for being such newbee...

Just a BTW: a hundred sq ft of copper, with 1 inch of GRP dielectric, is, I reckon, about 0.015uF, or ~2 ohms +/- 50%, at 4 Mhz. It gets lower at higher freqs or with thinner boat hulls. Not a terrible ground impedance if it is below the water line. Not perfect, but not terrible. Seems like it would be pretty consistent.

If the copper is in strips rather than in a large square sheet then there will be some inductance, which might defeat the whole thing. Sheet inductance (from my previous life) is not per square foot or per foot, its per "square".

[ka4wja]

derfy,

A few brief points...

1) First off, as I keep mentioning, all these answers are there in those stickies up top...and in the links in those threads... (including Gordo's old tests, my more recent tests, engineering calc., etc. etc. etc....it's all there!)


FYi, while Gordo's tests are good, and he's an awesome guy....please understand that he's getting up there in years now-a-days, and hasn't kept up with modern maritime HF operations (HF-DSC), etc....just saying read and learn, but verify, too...and get more info / more up-to-date info, as needed...

BTW, Please do NOT use "foil", but rather use "strap" / "strapping" (or "flashing")...."foil is too thin, too flimsy, and too difficult to paint/seal, etc....(fyi, if you can cut it with a good pair of scissors, it is "foil" and too thin....if you need tin-snips or wire-cutters, it's probably good....
See my references to Georgia Copper....(I've been doing business with them for years!)


There you'll read that use of push-pit/stern rails, lifelines, toerails (make good connection below any anodizing), rub rails, etc., make a very good HF antenna counterpoise....and are recommended above use of any "artificial counterpoise" (such as wires thrown in the lazarette/bilge), and certainly recommended much higher than the "KISS-Ground"....

The detailed answers to your questions are right there...please have a look....here I will give you a very brief overview....



For those of us on fiberglass/GRP boats, the antenna ground choices (in order of performance) are:

a) low-impedance direct sea water connection (where not only the best transmit performance is attained, but also the least RFI and best rec S/N), use of a close underwater bronze thru-hull, or Dynaplate (or any decent sized bronze or copper plate, attached to the underside of the hull).


b) some will try to use copper strapping to a keel bolt....and this can be a good way, but can also be mediocre.....if the length of the strapping is too long (more than 10' is too long), this strapping will be functioning more as a counterpoise itself rather than a low-impedance connection to your antenna ground (the sea water)....so, if this is your only choice (i.e. you have Marelon thru hulls, and cannot haul-out to install a Dynaplate), use wide (3" or wider) copper strapping, and perhaps use two straps, as surface area is important here....(and if you can run the strapping along the bottom of the hull and/or tie in any metallic tanks, etc., this is usually acceptable)



b) depending on how extensive / how well it's done, the use of push-pit/stern rails, lifelines, toerails (make good connection below any anodizing), rub rails, etc., can be a good second place choice...it can be better than attempting to run to a keel bolt....again depending on your boat and how you accomplish all of this...



[yes, I know there are two "b's"....depending on your boat and how well you do them, they can swap positions...]

c) in third place is use of metallic tanks, a long run of strapping up to the keel, etc...and substantial radial wires (two to three for each band of operation) strung under-deck/thru headliner or under cabin sole or thru bilges, stretched-out and strung as straight as possible, and keeping them separate as possible from other wiring (and from each other)....you see why this approach isn't used much, 'cuz it's a pain in the butt, much easier to do "a" or "b" above...




[fyi, Penatrox-A Conductive Grease is great...been using it for decades!! but, it's really messy, so have paper towels or old rag handy....use it liberally, and it will last many years....and if you ever need to take the connection apart it should be clean 'n shiny...ah, and btw, this is also another reason to use an external grounding plate (Dynaplate, etc.)....just makes life easy-peasy... ]


d) in fourth place is a simple/basic "artificial counterpoise", as I described earlier (a random scattering of a few "radial wires" in the lazarette/bilge)...


e) in last place is the "KISS ground", or even no antenna ground at all...


f) oh, btw please do NOT try to tie-in your ships AC/DC ground, nor to your AC/DC bonding system, and do NOT connect your tuner's antenna ground lug to your engine block....this is NOT good RF engineering practice, but rather is (ignorantly/wrongly) included in many manufactures' recommendations for two main reasons....legal and ignorance of on-board systems and RFI issues on smaller boats...(the details of this is covered in all of those other posts/stickies....so please read them!)




2) Secondly, in my opinion, you're over-thinking all of this....nothing wrong with learning about all of this.....but if you don't mind a polite suggestion, try not to read between any lines that I write, 'cuz I'm darn direct/blunt....if I didn't write it, chances are its not important, or at least not important to the discussion at hand...

And, please read over those stickies....where you'll find all the detailed answers you'll ever need...




3) Third, I think there is some misunderstanding here, as I never wrote (and never meant to imply) that antenna system design was "all about grounding"....because it is not!

a) This is going to sound odd/sarcastic, but please bear with me, 'cuz it's really not.....antenna system design (in general) is all about designing an antenna system that meets the needs of the specific application, and optimizing that design to best suit those needs and desires....and the key word in all of that is "system".....it is a complete system...


b) Please note that the only antennas that need a "ground" per se to work properly are unbalanced / single-ended antennas, like monopoles....the fact is that in our big world of radio communications, there are damn few applications that call for use of monopole antennas (AM / MW Broadcast stations being the overall primary users of monopoles)....so, aside from those users, almost every other antenna design is a two-pole and/or balanced design, where no antenna ground is needed at all! (of course, sadly this hasn't stopped many new hams from buying-into sales pitches and BS that they "must" have this or that, in order to get an antenna to work....but that's a whole 'nother discussion...)



c) For our use on board our boats, HF antenna system design is pretty straight forward, and almost all done for us due to both the application we have and mostly due to the limited space and mounting abilities. (and due to the wonderful properties of salt water, both the antenna ground current returns are great.....and pseudo-Brewster angle is VERY low, allowing excellent low-angle radiation....this means that even compromise antennas on our boats work well, and many times a backstay on a boat is saltwater, out-performs a 3-ele yagi on a tall tower on shore!!)


--- For clarification, look at our sailboats....we generally have one tall support (the mast) that will work to support an antenna....

--- With the primary function of the boat, well to be a boat and move/sail....and the primary function of the antenna support to actually hold up sails to move/sail the boat...we need to not interfere with those functions/operations....

--- While some (myself included) have mused/postulated the idea of a yagi antenna (or two) at the masthead, this just isn't practical.....and even if you just did this at anchor, the complications as well as storage space needed for it would be immense, not to mention costly! (and while a modified "shorty-forty" for 8mhz and a 12mhz 3-ele yagi, all at 65' above the water would be great antennas, the fact that most boats swing around at anchor means point the darn things to maintain comms in one direction would be a pain)

--- With the necessity / desire to operate from 2mhz thru 25mhz (maritime) or 1.8mhz thru 28mhz (ham), and be mechanically stable/inert (i.e. no moving parts)....

--- And, be rugged/secure so as to both operate in all weather / sea states, and not interfere with any other operation/function of the boat...


What do we have when we apply those criteria?

Well, the first choice/answer is: we get an end-fed monopole / backstay antenna...(or a "rope-tenna", or an "alternative backstay antenna")....

Second choice / answer is a end-fed/monopole whip antenna (whether on a catamaran or trawler, or on the stern rail of a monohull)

No matter the decade, radiowaves still travel the same way....even if we now find ourselves at the bottom of the solar cycle and use the lower bands/freqs almost exclusively....the radiowaves still travel the same way....and boats still have masts, and sails...(or trawlers or Cats might want a whip, or some other antenna, such as an end-fed "L")

So....



4) So, in our specific applications (offshore sailboats) a monopole antenna is de rigueur, and as such we do need/desire an antenna ground in order for the antenna system to work properly (in addition to its other functions, the antenna ground primarily represents the other half of the antenna)....but please be aware of what I (and almost all other marine HF radio guys) have been saying for decades now: This is all a matter of degree!!

How well (or how poorly) your HF antenna system / antenna ground works on-board (assuming we're all talking about end-fed monopole antennas, which we are here), is all a matter of degree!

This is what is highlighted multiple times, in multiple threads/postings, by myself and others.....please note that the "sky-is-falling, if you don't do 'this one thing' " comments from some well-meaning sailors, should be taken with a few grains of sea salt!!!

This is all a matter of degree!




I hope this helps? (and, please don't over think this...)

Fair winds.

John


P.S. Please let's not go down that rabbit hole of "100 sq ft of copper".....that's been beaten to death!


P.P.S. Sorry that's all I've got time for....now it's up to you to read the references...

[Brian.D]

I personally have not tried it yet as I currently have bigger fish to fry. And honestly I do not have answers to the technical question nor the equipment to actually run tests. I think Gordon West is a standup guy and would not intentionally mislead his readers. He does come with a good reputation. So I guess we have to work on faith here that what he wrote about works. JMHO