Bypassing Backstay Insulator for SSB Radio

[cburger]

Thank you Brian

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by cburger

I am looking to optimize for shortwave 20m, 40m and 17m. The boat is currently on the hard for work. Backstay antenna is approximately 23' long.
Running a nice old SEA 222 marine HF radio and an Icom RC-475. Both radios
have a ground wire run to a small Dynaplate. Sea antenna tuner is currently using a KISS as counterpoise, (Plan on changing this).

The marine radio will allow programing of shortwave frequencies and with boat on land have made contacts from NY as far as Thunder Bay Ontario on 20 meters, all the while utilizing dead batteries and the vessels charger providing DC power. The marine radio will receive 20m and 17m very nicely, however 40 meters very garbeled. The Icom using the same antenna and the dual passband feature will allow me to receive 40 meters but requiring a lot of patience and fussing.

Not sure what is meant by "garbled". Unless you mean just noisy. Any number of faults in the receiver may cause speech and data to be unclear, but it's unlikely to appear that way on just one band. If you can adjust passband, sometimes it will help - voice transmissions on SSB require about 3 to 3.5 KHz depending on the transmitter and voice of speaker at the other end.

If you find that you can't tune 40m, you can make your feedline, and thus your antenna, longer by coiling up a few feet of it, just above where it exits the deck. Try different coil slzes. Commonly called a loading coil, and used with all types of antennas.

Originally Posted by cburger

If possible would like to optimize the backstay to work with these bands without the aid of antenna tuner and have current equipment work to full potential.

Each side of a dipole or a whole vertical tuned for 40 meters for use without a tuner, is 1/4 wave long. This gives a low impedance (that's good) of about 75 ohms at the feedpoint on 40m. The same antenna is a half wave on 20m, which presents a very high impedance and won't accept power from the transmission line, and possibly damage your rig if you push it.

There is really no advantage to shorting the insulator and connecting to the chainplate, other than convenience. The single wire feed line is part of the antenna and the total length of metal connected to the tuner is about the same either way - I'm assuming your tuner is mounted below deck near the aft chainplate.

Doug
KG6U

[Brian.D]

He is using a SEA 222 Radio. I think it is set for ALL bands in Upper Sideband. So it is possible he was hearing 40 meters in USB, not LSB.

Just a thought

added -

From the SEA 222 Manual -
"Since the SEA 222 as normally supplied always operates as a normal upper sideband only SSB receiver, little mention need be made of alternate modes of operation."

[Bycrick]

Going way back to when SSB was first being used by hams, sufficiently sharp, narrow filters were expensive. IIRC, Zenith came out with a transmitter that only required one filter, but that meant that it used USB above 9 MHz and LSB below. That convention still exists. New bands, like 5 MHz, use USB, though

[ka4wja]

cburger,
FYI, much of the answers to your questions are found in the "stickies", at the top of the Cruiser's Forum "Marine Electronics" page...

HF-SSB Radio, Proper Installation Tips/Techniques, etc.
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...tc-198305.html

Marine SSB Stuff (how-to better use / properly-install SSB, & troubleshoot RFI, etc.)
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...tc-133496.html

Please read them....they will help!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Garbled signals on 40m, from a 30 year old SEA 222? I'm not surprised...

**** Please note the original SEA 222 was a USB (upper-side-band) only radio....and as such will not work for you on 40m ham band, where LSB (lower-side-band) is used....yes, use of LSB on the lower HF ham bands this is only by "convention" (yes, held-over from the old days of 9mhz IF's, and the 1950's, but has been this way since before I was born, and unlikely to change)....
So, the SEA 222 is not the radio for you!
(although I believe there is a mod that can be done, to allow LSB...but, not sure how involved it is)
All-in-all, the SEA 222 is a 30+ year old radio, that is not really suited for your application****
From the old SEA 222 manual:

Note that the 6.4 MHz filter selects the LOWER sideband. This is
actually the UPPER sideband because of the frequency inversion which
occurred at the first mixer.

My best advice:
Sell, the SEA 222 and the R-75 (?), and use the cash to buy a used Icom M-802 (currently ~ $750-$800....or ~$900 - $1000, including an AT-140 tuner)....
And, you'll be good-to-go for a decade or two....ham and maritime, voice, data, DSC, wefax, etc. etc...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


{a few tips/corrections of some commonly misunderstood info:

---your antenna starts at the tuner, so whatever the length, it should measured/calculated from the tuner....(fyi, the first few feet of this from the tuner are the most important in regards to transmit effectiveness)...and, goodness, to NOT coil up your antenna wire!!


---if it's done correctly, no need to worry about "attaching" your GTO-15 wire to your backstay, causing corrosion....
...although feeding the backstay belowdecks, attaching your GTO-15 to the chainplate, is also acceptable in most situations
(I'm a purist, and don't wish to introduce noise, PIM, intermittents, etc. into the system, so I usually don't recommend this, rather preferring to use both a lower and upper insulator)

---although some report acceptable results feeding the entire rig (no insulators at all), be aware that this usually causes RFI issues...and decades of research and experience (since the 1930's) show poor / mediocre results in "coupled", "shunt-fed", "slant-fed" antennas, especially if needing wideband effectiveness

--- over a decade ago, I spent a couple years in correspondence with the late L.B. Cebik, W4RNL (the premiere antenna modeler of our modern times), discussing the difficulties (fallacy) of accurate antenna models of our "backstay antennas"....our conclusions:
It holds up the mast, use it and you'll be fine, but trying to model all the variables is too difficult....(maybe more modern computer models can do this now?, but to what end? just use the darn thing, and it will work...)

--- research (real-world tests and scientific calculations) over many years has shown a direct sea-water connection to be superior to a "capacitively-coupled" ground....and recent tests have shown the KISS to be even worse than capacitively-coupled ground! }


--- No ground wire to a Dynaplate from the radios! Only connect the Dynaplate to the remote tuner ground terminal!! (and use copper strapping, rather than a "wire")

Please note that all these above are covered in detail in the "stickies"....




As for some more helpful info (in addition to reading the "stickies" above), once you get a radio that will work for your application...

1) First off, please remember that HF communications success is all about received signal-to-noise ratio (s/n)....period. (now-a-days, man-made noise is the predominant issue here....of course, minor contributions to this are operator knowledge / experience / skill in radiowave propagation and actual HF radio operations)

Changing end-fed sloping vertical length from 23' to ~ 40' (or more), will do nothing to improve your received s/n...



2) "recommended length" of HF backstay antennas is all about transmit efficiency / effectiveness....

Longer lengths (> 40') are better for the lower HF bands, shorter lengths (< 40') are better for the higher HF bands...
The typical 40' - 45' recommendation is a compromise, but works well for most....but, a 23' long antenna also works for many, and a 23' whip is the predominant trawler / power-boat HF antenna, as well as used often on catamaran's...so, no worries there...




3) FYI, an antenna analyzer (or any other analyzer) will do you no good in regards to determining antenna efficiency / antenna system efficiency....that info/knowledge is in books, here on-line, etc., and is not shown on the display of an analyzer....so...
So, save your $$$....it will do you no good....



4) BTW, I'm aware that these comments / anti-recommendation, are contrary to some of the "new ham" standard recommends.....but, they are based on my > 45 years experience.....and, to be clear here, we are talking about three important situations that are rather specific (almost "unique") to our particular application / system:

a) we are using a compromise antenna (no matter what length)....albeit it's typically unobstructed / out in the clear, and over sea water, both of which go a long way to compensating for the rather poor antenna designs we use!

b) we are using a remote auto-tuner (antenna coupler), which means we are coupling a rather compromise antenna (and in some situations, rather inefficient antenna), directly to our transmitters [note that as long as it's a decent brand of coax, with well-installed connectors, the short length of coax connecting the transmitter to the tuner has such minimal loss on HF, that we can almost ignore it]....and therefore the design / construction of our remote auto-tuner is a very large contribution to our antenna efficiency or inefficiency....of course, the antenna ground system is the more important factor, which is why we all say to scrap the KISS!
{that means, use a good tuner ---- designed for this purpose --- Icom AT-130, AT-140, etc. or even the "ham" designs AH-2, AH-4.... SEA 1620, 1630, etc.... older SGC 230's, 235's (the newer ones have had some quality-control issues)...}

c) we are placing our antenna system in very close proximity to many RFI ("noise") generating devices....therefore significantly effecting our received s/n!

These 3 things are rather specific to our application, and since we usually cannot do much about our antennas themselves (their primary purpose is, of course, to hold up the mast!), there are a few other things we can do...(in addition to reading the "stickies", above)

To improve our reception:

--- remove all the noise-generating devices on our boats...(or just disconnect them, when using the radio, not just "turning 'em off", disconnect them!)

--- learn radiowave propagation and radio operations

--- use headphones {you will be surprised at how much easier, with headphones, HF operations are when s/n is slight....but, no need for expensive hi-fi headphones (they can actually make things worse, sometimes), nor expensive noise-cancelling headphones (a waste of $$$).....just use some decent comms headphones (mine are $40 Kenwood's, but most don't spend that much)...}

--- use a modern radio, in good alignment, etc....(many times some new to HF, unknowingly start with a defective radio)



To improve transmission and reception:

--- Improve your antenna ground / ground system

--- Use a good quality remote auto-tuner (antenna coupler)


--- Check to make sure your radio is powered directly from your battery bank (not thru a distribution panel / breaker panel)

--- Use high-quality coaxial cable, with well-installed connectors


Knowing you're on a Westsail 32, and using a SEA 222, and your words here...Here are some more specific tips / answers:

Originally Posted by cburger

Poor reception on 40m, a guess would be current length 23'

See details above and below....

Originally Posted by cburger

There have been contributions from other members indicating that 40' to 45' are about optimum for backstay antennas, would there someting to gain by increasing our length of 23', and would bypassing the lower insulator as indicated work. Ultimately will put an analyzer on in attempt to optimise antenna efficiency.

No need to "optimize"....and see details above, below, and in the "stickies"...

Originally Posted by cburger

I am looking to optimize for shortwave 20m, 40m and 17m. The boat is currently on the hard for work. Backstay antenna is approximately 23' long.
That's a good length...optimal length for best transmit efficiency for those three bands might be a bit longer, about 30' is a good length....BUT....but, you'd never notice the difference! So, if it's 23', 25', 28', 30', etc. etc...all good!
BTW, as you see above (and in the stickies), there isn't a big need to worry about the length of the antenna....as long as it's between 20-some feet and 60-some feet...it will work!

Running a nice old SEA 222 marine HF radio and an Icom RC-475. Both radios have a ground wire run to a small Dynaplate. Sea antenna tuner is currently using a KISS as counterpoise, (Plan on changing this).
Assume you meant an Icom R-75??
But, in any case...

No ground wire to a Dynaplate from the radios! (usually causes RFI issues)
Only connect the Dynaplate to the remote tuner ground terminal!! (and use copper strapping, rather than a "wire")
Please see the "stickies" above for details!

Oh, and please scrap the KISS....
Better, Sell the KISS! (and the 222) You can keep the R-75 if you want, but if you sell the KISS, the 222, and the R-75, you can buy a used M-802 and AT-140, and be all set!


The marine radio will allow programing of shortwave frequencies and with boat on land have made contacts from NY as far as Thunder Bay Ontario on 20 meters, all the while utilizing dead batteries and the vessels charger providing DC power.
Unless you're extremely lucky (and have a 40 year old charger), your current power source ("the vessel's charger") is causing some (significant?) RFI....
Disconnect the charger, and use a battery, and things should get much easier


The marine radio will receive 20m and 17m very nicely, however 40 meters very garbeled. The Icom using the same antenna and the dual passband feature will allow me to receive 40 meters but requiring a lot of patience and fussing.
**** The reason 20m and 17m reception (and transmission) is good, but 40m is garbled, is because 20m and 17m uses USB (as do all maritime HF Voice comms), and 40m uses LSB....this means the SEA 222 is the wrong radio for your application! ****

BTW, I assume you meant an Icom R-75??
If so, it's not a bad receiver, but not a great one...
And with much RFI (man-made noise) I suspect getting it to work well is going to a pain...
(although, if you get rid of the RFI, especially stop using a battery-charger for a power-supply, you may find the R-75 to work well for you...but, it's just a receiver, of course)

My advice: Sell them both, and of course the KISS...asap....and with the cash, buy a used Icom M-802 (~ $800 currently), and you'll be good-to-go for a decade or two!!

If possible would like to optimize the backstay to work with these bands without the aid of antenna tuner and have current equipment work to full potential.
Sorry, cburger....using your current equipment is not going to work for you....

And fyi, as you see from above (and the stickies) there is little need to "optimize" the antenna length (yes, I have done so, on my boat....but, I'm a radio nut....for everyone else, it's "use what you have" and/or 40' - 45'....)

I do hope this helps clear some things up?

Fair winds

John

[cburger]

Thank you John, KA4WJA, I have read with much enjoyment and plan on following your reccomendations. First thing will be to get rid of KISS and install a good seawater ground within a couple of feet of the tuner.

[ka4wja]

You're very welcome.
Glad to have helped!

Originally Posted by cburger

Thank you John, KA4WJA, I have read with much enjoyment and plan on following your reccomendations. First thing will be to get rid of KISS and install a good seawater ground within a couple of feet of the tuner.

But, fyi, the first step for 40m is to get a new radio...as the SEA 222 is not going to work for you, for 40m!

Next step, or concurrent with the first step, is to not power your radio(s) with a battery charger, and disconnect the battery charger!

Connection of sea water ground to antenna tuner is important (very important for transmitting efficiency / effectiveness), but way, way down in importance versus the above two...
Please read what I wrote (and the stickies) again....


Sorry to be blunt, but whoever sold you the SEA 222 and R-75, and the KISS....please do not follow their advice anymore....SAVE YOUR MONEY!!!!
Sell them (ebay is good, or eham.net), and buy a radio that will work for you and any accessories needed...and you might actually break even!


Fair winds.

John

[ussvdharma]

KISS is a good item but only if your in a small appartment or such and can not get to a ground. Now for your situation.NO GROUND IN THE WATER. It will corrode, get growth and soon be of little use.


Contact a stained glass supply store. They will sell thing copper strips that are stickey adhesive backed...the rolls of 40 yds shouldnt be over 10 bucks or so up to maybee 15 for the larger sizes.


Run a ground cable down from rig to bilges....NO, AGAIN NO!. Use the copper strips...very easy to hide behind things and will easily get your grounding down to the bilges. Now run two or three lengths of the copper ribbon as much of the length of the boat as you can...both sides of the boat on the tumple home (where hull curves and is below the water line, but not in the bilge waters. Solder the strips to gether,,,,the copper strips easily solder together a few places.


Now, consider what you have done You have brougnt your ground wire (STRIP_ down to the tumblehome of the hull. You have a copper strip (conductor) , the hull(an insulator), and the ocean (conductor) in other words you have captivity coupled to the water without touching it. You can even paint over the strips....Remember from you basic electronics RF travels on the skin of the conductor not internally, so in fact the flat copper strips do a better job than most cables, unless they are big.


I have installed many radios on boats for people using this system and wow does it work good. If you have any questions about electronics or solo sailing in general give me a jingle at ussvdharma@yahoo.com. I soloed a 46' panoceanic for years, then traded down to a 32' and took off into the pacific islands....did sail repairs, canvas repairs, installed radios and antenna/ground systems etc. But at 85 I am now ashore in south Mississippi till the end de W7KFI es 7Q7M Susan

[cburger]

[QUOTE=ka4wja;3294445]You're very welcome.
Glad to have helped!


But, fyi, the first step for 40m is to get a new radio...as the SEA 222 is not going to work for you, for 40m!


The SEA 222 was in the boat when it was purchased and would like to keep it for a while. Was thinking about installing a dedicated shortwave radio like the ICOM IC 7200,

[ka4wja]

Chris,
I understand about the 222....no worries...
(in it's day, 30 some years ago, it wasn't a bad HF marine radio, just not something that I'd spend any money/effort on....)

Originally Posted by cburger

The SEA 222 was in the boat when it was purchased and would like to keep it for a while. Was thinking about installing a dedicated shortwave radio like the ICOM IC 7200,

I assume you're thinking about an HF ham radio, when you write "a dedicated shortwave radio, like the Icom IC 7200"? 'Cuz, you mentioned trying to talk to some on 40m, and limited success on 20m, and 17m...
If so, please do not consider the 7200....(unless it was also already on the boat, and you didn't pay any money for it.....but, even for free, it's not a great radio)

Forgive me if this sounds rude, definitive not my intention....just want to be clear, and I hope you don't mind me being blunt here??

Ironically, the 7200 was marketed to those that were looking for a more rugged mobile radio, and/or one that had easy-to-use / easy-to-access remote computer control and use.....but, the 7200 actually turned out to be was, quite honestly, one their worst HF radios since the IC-725, 30 years ago...
{the 7200 had quality-control issues, caused by glitches in firmware/software, as well as poor construction design....also, it has been reported by many many hams over the years that it is unfortunately very susceptible to RFI (both transmit RFI, and some receive RFI)....and transmit RFI in modern radios is rare these days...of course some on small boats have transmit RFI into other systems on-board, actually having a radio having problems with transmit RFI / feedback / shut-down, etc. is darn rare these days...}

Oh, and the guys that seem to hype the '7200 the most are the newer / inexperienced hams, and especially those into emcom and "prepper's"....where image and the "cool" factor far out pace any actual performance issues...


I know there seems to be a plethora of HF radios out there to choose from....but, not to worry, just last summer I wrote quite a long post about the many HF ham radios on the market, new and used....and a comparison to the venerable Icom M-802 (currently selling for about $800, used)

Please have a look here at this post (post #91) in the sticky:
Marine SSB Stuff (how-to better use / proeprly-install SSB, & troubleshoot RFI, etc.
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post2961072

You can scroll down to item #5 in that post, for a rather extensive description of many HF ham radios...


Now, if by "shortwave radio", you were just looking for something to listen to Shortwave Broadcast stations.....there are other options, other than the ham radios I mention in that post, but to be honest. once you spend the $150 - $200 on a decent Shortwave Radio, you're much better off just buying an older Icom or Kenwood HF ham radio (for ~ $ 400 - $600)....

BUT....

But, to be blunt....if you can spend $800 or so, just buy a good used Icom M-802!!

As I wrote earlier, your best bet is to sell the SEA 222, sell the KISS, and buy an M-802....and you'll be MUCH MUCH happier!!!
If money is tight (when isn't it?), sell the Icom R-75 as well...
The M-802 is a much better radio than any that you current have, or that you've mentioned....


When you click on it, you'll see that there is a lot of info in that post, from last year.....but, please read it, it will save you a lot of $$$$!!
Marine SSB Stuff (how-to better use / proeprly-install SSB, & troubleshoot RFI, etc.
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post2961072


Whatever your communications application is, whatever your communications / information / news / weather / radio etc., desires are, we'll get you pointed in the right direction!!
I promise!
But, in order to be specific (rather than just dealing in generalities), we do need to know what all of those are, so please let us know....
(all I know is that you want to talk on 40m, 20m, and 17m)


I do hope this helps....(please read over that post, and them come back here and let us know what your specific application / desires are)

Fair winds.

John




P.S. Please remember, successful HF radio communications is all about received s/n (signal-to-noise ratio), and if you read that sticky I referenced, you'll see that the number one and two things to do in that regard is to rid your boat of RFI producing devices (like your battery charger) and learning about HF Radiowave Propagation....
Once you do that, just about any radio (including the 7200 ) will work...