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**Dockhead** · 10-05-2023, 01:43

I realize Sailing Anarchy might be a better place to ask this, but can anyone opine on the pros and cons of Deckman vs. Expedition?

I have a newly commissioned H5000 Hercules system and would like to put some proper software solution behind it.

I presently use OpenCPN's routing and tactics plugins for racing (and for longer passages under sail) but my polars are rather crude and the functionality of this is rather limited. I think it will be a lot easier to develop proper polars with one of the commercial packages.

I have a fairly new fixed mount minicomputer with a large high res screen at my nav table, connected to the boat network with ethernet, so computing power and connectivity is not an issue.

Deckman probably integrates with the H5000 better, but Expedition is the gold standard, isn't it?

Any advice?

Bill O · 10-05-2023, 06:17

Off subject slightly, but did you ever try the polar plugin in ocpn to make them? If so, what issues did you encounter?
We need polars for our boat and was hoping the plugin would work well enough for the weather routing.

wholybee · 10-05-2023, 07:50

The commercial packages won't make it any easier to make good polars, but you can do more with them once you have them.

I have only limited experience with Expedition, and i don't recall any tools for making polars at all. Expedition isn't a simple to use program, and the class to learn it was $1500 on top of the $1500 it cost. That ruled it out for me when i raced.

I put a lot of time into my polars, and concluded that highly accurate polars don't matter. There are so many errors in the process, from the wind direction being maybe 5 degrees off, to the effects of waves on performance, and if you even have ocean current data its going to be wrong. So getting more accurate polars just doesn't help. As long as they are in the ballpark.

The pro teams know this, and that is why they spend money on professional navigators, who don't blindly follow computer generated routes. And i believe that is the difference between ocpn and the pro tools, the ability to play what ifs. What if i take this route? And what if a wind shift comes early? Or if wind is stronger or lighter than predicted? As mentioned, i didn't take the class, but my understanding is that Expedition lets you play with stuff like that.

Mal Reynolds · 13-05-2023, 12:32

Hi DH,

Didn't see an SA posting so responding here...I'm an Expedition user, have used OpenCPN somewhat, and haven't tried Deckman. Assess these comments accordingly.

What I can tell you is Expedition is much more useable and capable than OpenCPN for polars and routing. Expedition supports many versions of polars, including navigation, performance, cruising, etc. There is also polar logging if you're into that sort of thing. My understanding Nick has spend considerable time working on this aspect of Expedition.

Expedition's routing allows for many variables and weather models, and can run them simultaneously. Staggering departure times is quite useful. I put marks mid-ocean to model out different course options to emphasize comfort over speed. Weather grib downloading is built-in for many services. Satellite imagery is just a right-click away. 3D views when crossing oceans is just plain cool. Very happy user.

The sailchart feature is a little mind-bending. It puts a dynamic dot on a chart with what sail or reef you should have up given the wind strength and angle (either AWA or TWA).

Anyway, very happy Expedition user. Now if someone would just solve the true wind problem.

donradcliffe · 13-05-2023, 13:17

I have used Expedition to capture performance data and use it to modify polars. I have also used it for local and ocean routing and starts. I have not used Deckman.

Expedition does a lot of stuff, but it takes a fair bit of learning to use. There are courses from Peter Isler and a bunch of youtubes.

PeterSailor · 14-05-2023, 04:12

You might need to downgrade your minicomputer and OS, Deckmand requirement is:

Windows 7 Professional with (Virtual PC) XP Mode, 32-bit CPU only
Windows 2000, XP, Vista, Windows 7, 32-bit CPU only

I tried the install on Windows 10 and it wont even start.

Mattzilla · 15-05-2023, 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mal Reynolds

Hi DH,

Didn't see an SA posting so responding here...I'm an Expedition user, have used OpenCPN somewhat, and haven't tried Deckman. Assess these comments accordingly.

What I can tell you is Expedition is much more useable and capable than OpenCPN for polars and routing. Expedition supports many versions of polars, including navigation, performance, cruising, etc. There is also polar logging if you're into that sort of thing. My understanding Nick has spend considerable time working on this aspect of Expedition.

Expedition's routing allows for many variables and weather models, and can run them simultaneously. Staggering departure times is quite useful. I put marks mid-ocean to model out different course options to emphasize comfort over speed. Weather grib downloading is built-in for many services. Satellite imagery is just a right-click away. 3D views when crossing oceans is just plain cool. Very happy user.

The sailchart feature is a little mind-bending. It puts a dynamic dot on a chart with what sail or reef you should have up given the wind strength and angle (either AWA or TWA).

Anyway, very happy Expedition user. Now if someone would just solve the true wind problem.

What True Wind problem are you referring to?

Mattzilla · 15-05-2023, 14:31

I run Expedition for weather routing and logging data through Stripchart, and use OpenCPN for Radar. Expedition will interface with Navico radar, but is an expensive licence that is limited to 1 radome.

I got exposed to Expedition using it in offshore racing, and for start lines and pin pinging in W/L inshore races, and had to use it delivering race yachts, so I bought it for my own toughbook to use and to learn. Honestly has taken a few years to become competent, however using it when cruising and on delivery has allowed me to spend a lot of time practicing and learning. Have used the logging function to analyse and refine polars for my own boat, the weather routing using multiple Gribs is excellent, however for simple use some find Predictwind Offshore easier to use. Boat tracking can be useful for looking at another boats performance or track. Plus you can display all sorts of specific number box data for performance, or routing.

Expedition would be my choice for an H5000 system for racing, as long as you take the time to calibrate everything, and take the time/read updo a course on how to get the most out of it. Will Oxley has a couple of great books that are useful for developing an efficient workflow when using it.
But the software is only as good as the data going into it - if instruments are not regularly calibrated, bad data in = bad data out.

I have only used Deckman with older B&G installs to provide an interface to Expedition. I find Expedition a better package, with regular updates, and great support from Nick.

Capt.Don · 15-05-2023, 17:15

I like qtvlm. Qtvlm does everything I need and keeps getting better with each release.

Moo · 16-05-2023, 12:59

Expedition, Adrena, QTVLM (the budget option, free

) then a loooong way back Deckman

Eagle ITA · 16-05-2023, 13:36

Does anyone have any opinions on TZ Timezero?

Moo · 16-05-2023, 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle ITA

Does anyone have any opinions on TZ Timezero?

Slick, but it is a different market to Expedition, Adrena, Deckman. It entirely depends what you want it for. Ocean racing - Expedition, Adrena, Deckman etc.. Cruising TZ if you want slick and good support, QTVLM or OpenCPN will do just as well. Fishing TZ.

Eagle ITA · 16-05-2023, 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moo

Slick, but it is a different market to Expedition, Adrena, Deckman. It entirely depends what you want it for. Ocean racing - Expedition, Adrena, Deckman etc.. Cruising TZ if you want slick and good support, QTVLM or OpenCPN will do just as well. Fishing TZ.

Thanks

**Dockhead** · 16-05-2023, 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterSailor

You might need to downgrade your minicomputer and OS, Deckmand requirement is:

Windows 7 Professional with (Virtual PC) XP Mode, 32-bit CPU only
Windows 2000, XP, Vista, Windows 7, 32-bit CPU only

I tried the install on Windows 10 and it wont even start.

That's useful information! No Deckman for me then.