Eliminating static on SSB

[Brian.D]

George, give this document a read regarding using sea water as your counterpoise/"ground".

https://briandphoto.net/WA6CCA/Sea.pdf

Some really good info.

[Auspicious]

Jeepers John - you don't leave me hardly anything at all.

Originally Posted by ka4wja

d) Do you have any underwater bronze thru-hulls?? Connecting another copper strap from your tuner to an underwater bronze thru-hull, that is within a few feet (less than 8' to 10') is always a good approach...

I think I've posted on this thread before that hose clamps are stunningly bad electrical connectors. If you have seacocks drilling and tapping a #10-24 hole in the foot for a connection is a good solution. For a conventional thru-hull you'll have to find some attachment mechanism. Don't use a hose clamp.

[Brian.D]

The hose-clamp is just a means of securing the ground source to the thru-hull. It has nothing to do with the conveyance of RF currents. One can use a tie-wrap if one chooses. If there is a concern, one can even wrap copper around the thru-hull before securing it with a hose-clamp.

JMHO

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Brian.D

The hose-clamp is just a means of securing the ground source to the thru-hull.

It doesn't work. In an astonishingly short period of time whether you use stranded wire or foil vibration causes the edge of the strap to cut through the conductor.

A wire-tie is worse as you can't get sufficient tension to keep the conductor in contact and corrosion increases resistance.

Hose clamps as connectors at ground connections and GTO-15 to backstay are the first things I look for when customers have HF/SSB problems. Simply poor practice.

[gchabs]

Once again, thank you very much to all for the in-depth responses and recommendations.

To bring you up to date, I received my 802 and tuner back from Icom the other day. Icom found the 802, control head and mic in good condition and free of lightning damage. As for the tuner, while there was no evidence of lightning damage, they did find physical damage to the coax at the ferrule end of the tuner pigtail cable which on my boat connects to a line isolator, which in turn connects to the coax from the 802 main unit. So Icom replaced that pigtail cable. The tech indicated that the damage he found would have likely resulted in my transmitting a weaker signal, one of the issues I was experiencing. He advised this was not impact damage due to something hitting the ferrule (boat fenders and other items are located in the same locker as the tuner), so something accidentally dropping on it was probably not the cause.

I do, however, recall that earlier this Spring, while conducting some of my preliminary testing following the lightning strike, I did un-couple the tuner coax pigtail cable from the line isolator. When I initially installed it, I had used Coax-Seal to waterproof the connection and now recall having difficulty separating the connection. So I used a set of pliers to unscrew the ferrule and separate both the tuner coax pigtail and the coax leading from the isolator to the main unit. The Icom tech indicated, this could have been what caused the damage to the coax on the tuner pigtail. If the coax near the tuner pigtail ferrule had damage, I must wonder if it is possible that I did the same thing to the RG8 coax at the end which connects to the other side of the line isolator?

So, here is my thought. While I would ordinarily conduct the testing John suggests before moving any cables, in light of the fact that it may be possible that I damaged the RG8 coax on the other end of the line isolator as well (which if so, could potentially prevent me from getting proper readings when I do the testing), I think it makes sense to simply buy new RG8 or RG-213 coax from the 802 main unit to the tuner and the isolator so that I know I am operating with good coax. Since moving that coax away from its current attachment point to the bundle of cables running aft into the port locker won't hurt and may help, I believe it prudent to buy enough coax to route it away from any electrical source back to the tuner - approximately 40-50'.

Then, once I reconnect everything, I shall do the testing that John suggests. Are there any thoughts that this makes sense/no sense?

I have just checked with DX Engineering and a 50' length assembly of 8U PL-259 Low-Loss 50-ohm Coax Cable, RG-8/U, 11 AWG Stranded Copper Center, Flex Type I PVC Jacket, PL-259 Ends runs approx. $79. A 50' length assembly of RG-213/U, 12.5 AWG, Stranded Copper Center, Type II-A PVC Jacket, PL-259 Ends, runs approx. $72. Either one of these would seem to fit the bill and would allow me great latitude in routing the coax from the 802 to the tuner. A small price to pay to insure I have an undamaged system from 802 to tuner. I tend to go with the RG-8/U even though it is a bit more expensive, as it is thicker wire.

However, any thoughts as to which I should buy?

And finally, I always thought that you were supposed to use tinned wire on boats? This is just copper. Does that make any difference in this situation?

Again, thanks for the input. George

[ka4wja]

George,
1) You're a darn lucky guy....to not have serious damage from a lightning strike!
(I suspect this was a close-by strike and you simply got a side-flash or the ESD energy...but whatever the case, count your blessings...)



2) As for coax pigtail damage from trying to pry apart connections stuck together with coax-seal....just do a couple wraps with good quality electrical tape (Scotch super 33 or super 88....super 33+ is the most commonly-used, but super 88 is a bit thicker and heavier-duty)...
If you want to maintain a clean connection that can be taken-apart from time-to-time, we do a wrap with the "sticky-side" out, and then a couple wraps the normal way....pulling the tape tight so it stretches 30% - 50%, and overlap each turn about 30% - 50% too....this will keep your connection clean and dry for decades....and is easy to remove...
(if you have a need for better UV protection, another wrap of tape, whether the same type or a silicone tape is good....or a boot....although some will also use coax-seal over a couple wraps of tape, it does get messy and at some point you've reached the limit of diminishing returns!)



3) As for the new coax....go with the RG-213...(or you could use RG-8x)....there is NO need for low-loss, foam-dielectric cable here (the RG-8u cable you mention), and the RG-213 is the stronger, stiffer, and more heavy-duty of the two that you mention....
https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-213udx050
(note: I've seen low-loss, foam coax pinched / deformed by just an aggressive tug or two on a plastic cable-tie securing the cable....now, on a short run of coax at HF freqs, probably not a big problem, but can be an issue over time...another reason to just use good quality RG-213....it works and it lasts a long time...)


{I'm hesitant to write this here, 'cuz it might confuse the issue....but, I'm including just to give some options...(I still recommend RG-213, hands down)
If you desire to save some $, and want a cable easier to route, then you can try RG-8x....
https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-213udx050
But, it shares the same issues as the RG-8u cable you asked about, foam dielectric....}



4) Tinned-copper wire is good, 'cuz it won't tarnish/corrode....which is important at the connection point, especially on a boat....
Although some will argue that there are boats built 40 - 50 years ago, without any tinned-wire, and many of these classics have perfectly working electrical systems....and while true...some are fine.....the advice to use tinned copper wire is sound (and an ABYC standard, too), so most will do so...

But, this is for wire that must be "connected" to something, either by a crimp-on terminal, screw terminal, or "spring-latch" terminal, etc...not for coaxial cable, whose connectors are soldered and/or properly assembled/crimped and protected...

Bottom line: not much to worry about using "bare copper conductors" inside coaxial cable....

Although, if you do decide you need coax with "tinned wire" (both center conductor and shield), you can select RG-214-Tinned....(fyi, RG-214 is available in two versions: silver-plated, double-shielded....and tinned, double-shielded)
Be forewarned....it ain't cheap!
I use RG-214 at home (as well as other cables), and it is one of the best choices for HF cabling (and even for short runs on VHF/UHF)...
And, I use it for jumper cables, etc. even on-board....but, I'm kinda a fanatic, you know...



Hope this helps...

John

[gchabs]

Thanks again for all the replies. I am now busily ordering all the stuff I need and will report back when I have tested. Given the heat, I doubt whether I shall be going out on the boat until early September. But, one can always hope. Again, thanks for all the assistance. George

[ka4wja]

George,
Good luck with everything!


And, while your questions / my answers about HF-DSC, aren't on-point of this thread....since you asked and I answered, guess it's cool.


So, I'm going to add some clarifications here, regarding MF/HF-DSC signaling...


Due to my efforts to promote HF-DSC, I unfortunately went too far and inadvertently caused some confusion....please ignore and forget my comments specifically dealing with "routine" HF-DSC signaling (you can skip that video, as well), unless you have some unique/specific need to investigate / learn about "routine" signaling....

Please just stick with the "Distress" (MayDay) signaling and "Safety" (Securite`) signaling (for weather, navigation, communications testing).



Those of us on private yachts, with the Icom M-802, etc., will mostly be using MF/HF-DSC for "Distress" signaling (MayDay) or "Safety" signaling (for weather, navigation / communications testing, etc.)....and that's probably it...


And, you're going to be using one of the six Int'l GMDSS DSC "Safety" / "Calling" frequencies
[2187.5khz; 4207.5khz; 6312.0khz; 8414.5khz; 12577.0khz; 16804.5khz]



Although, I already mentioned that the USCG offers "automated DSC Testing" on 4207.5khz, from 3 of their locations, if you are beyond 4mhz comms range, they do accept DSC "Safety" calls for testing / verifying proper HF-DSC system operation, as long as you don't do this often (typically once per year / once per season, or only prior to an ocean passage).



Some additional supporting info for this:
From US FCC Part 80 Rules & Regs (Maritime Mobile Service):

80.359 Frequencies for digital selective calling (DSC).

(b) Distress and safety calling. The frequencies 2187.5 kHz, 4207.5 kHz, 6312.0 kHz, 8414.5 kHz, 12577.0 kHz, 16804.5 kHz and 156.525 MHz may be used for DSC by coast and ship stations on a simplex basis for distress and safety purposes, and may also be used for routine ship-to-ship communications provided that priority is accorded to distress and safety communications. The provisions and procedures for distress and safety calling are contained in ITU-R M.541-9 (incorporated by reference, see § 80.7), and § 80.103(c).



And, some further info (primarily dealing with the equipment and crew familiarity):

Quote from US Gov't Pub 117:


Use of GMDSS Equipment for Routine Telecommunications; GMDSS telecommunications equipment should not be reserved for emergency use only.

The IMO has issued COMSAR/Circ.17 (dated 9 March 1998) which recommends and encourages mariners to use that equipment for routine as well as safety telecommunications. The following recommendation is extracted from Circ.17:

Use of GMDSS equipment for transmission of general radiocommunications is one of the functional requirements specified in SOLAS chapter IV, regulation 4.

Regular use of GMDSS equipment helps to develop operator competency and ensure equipment availability. If ships use other radio communication systems for the bulk of their business communications, they should adopt a regular program of sending selected traffic or test messages via GMDSS equipment to ensure operator competency and equipment availability and to help reduce the incidence of false alerts.


This policy extends to all GMDSS equipment suites including Digital Selective Calling (DSC) on VHF, MF and HF, to the Inmarsat systems, and to any duplicated VHF and long-range communications facilities.



{Over the years, I've attempted to be a bit less USA-centric, trying to point to the international uses of the GMDSS.....and I've mentioned some sailors recommendations for using MF/HF-DSC in ocean rallies, etc., as well as encouraging the use of "regional MMSI's" for regional-group calling... but these are rather specialized / niche uses, and I now realize that those interested in them will either already be aware or will be smart enough to ask/learn....so, no need for me to be rambling on about them... }



Without going into the weeds of the original GMDSS plan, nor specifically Digital Selective Calling (DSC), please remember that this system was originally designed/planned in the late 1980's / early 1990's, and implemented starting in 1992....so, much has changed....not the least of which most "public correspondence" (ship-to-shore phone calls) is handled via sat comm, as are most "data comms" that aren't being handled privately via PACTOR....


While the MF/HF-DSC system (as well as the VHF-DSC system) is an integral part of the GMDSS (Global Maritime Distress and Safety System), the main use these days is the "Distress" signaling and "Safety" signaling, not the "Routine" signaling that was intended to be used for both ship-to-shore and shore-to-ship signaling, by both "public coast stations" (for "public correspondence" and ship's/fleet's business) and "private coast stations" (usually for ship's/fleet's business, using SITOR/FSK)...


So, while we can continue to rely on the GMDSS to be there when we need it [406mhz EPIRB's; NAVTEX; VHF-DSC-FM; MF/HF-DSC-SSB; SafetyNET broadcasts; INMARSAT-C (and now / soon-to-be INMARSAT FB and Iridium Certus); SART's (AIS-SART's or SART-X's)], we should remember (or rather I should accept?) that most sailors/cruisers (except those using NAVTEX...mostly in Europe or Asia), these days only use the GMDSS in times of "Distress"....so...


So, perhaps we could learn something from the IMO (International Maritime Organization) that started the whole SOLAS (Safety-Of-Life-At-Sea) idea, and came up with the GMDSS in the first place?



Maybe we should heed their advice?


Have a look again at what their advice / recommendations are:
Use of GMDSS equipment for transmission of general radiocommunications is one of the functional requirements specified in SOLAS chapter IV, regulation 4.


Regular use of GMDSS equipment helps to develop operator competency and ensure equipment availability. If ships use other radio communication systems for the bulk of their business communications, they should adopt a regular program of sending selected traffic or test messages via GMDSS equipment to ensure operator competency and equipment availability and to help reduce the incidence of false alerts.


This policy extends to all GMDSS equipment suites including Digital Selective Calling (DSC) on VHF, MF and HF, to the Inmarsat systems, and to any duplicated VHF and long-range communications facilities.



Perhaps this is simply what I should have recommended from the beginning, some ~ 17 years ago, when I first started touting "HF-DSC"? But, whatever the case, that's what I recommending today!


I do hope this info is helpful to you all.

Fair winds.

John


P.S. Don't forget the "stickies" here, on Maritime HF Comms

Marine SSB Stuff (how-to better use / properly-install SSB, & troubleshoot RFI, etc.)
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/marine-ssb-stuff-how-to-better-use-properly-install-ssb-and-troubleshoot-rfi-etc-133496.html


HF-SSB Radio, Proper Installation Tips/Techniques, etc.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...tc-198305.html


And, for those looking for the easy-peasy link to a free video series / Playlists, have a look here:


HF-DSC Comms

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2n3z5nlv-ga2zYuPozhUXZX


VHF-DSC Comms

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2m-IejYg7J6QugtO2epizxF


Generic Maritime HF comms
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2nPNdApNsZDo_Jk3NB_Bt1y


Offshore Weather
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2mPZAx2vWzdjTJjHlChruyY


Icom M-802 Instruction Videos
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2npivDjoFrC-8QKVyMb4tVr


Offshore Sailing
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2nbwAGh5DKgTCj15iyl6qoY

[gchabs]

John: Thanks again for the clarification. Seems like DX Engineering is temporarily out of RG-213 and won’t get it in till late August. Grrrrr. Do you have any other recommended source to get it? If not, I may just get the RG8x,, that should work, correct? Thanks. George

[ka4wja]

Wow...out-of-stock of RG-213 assemblies....that's rare...

Originally Posted by gchabs

John: Thanks again for the clarification. Seems like DX Engineering is temporarily out of RG-213 and won’t get it in till late August. Grrrrr. Do you have any other recommended source to get it? If not, I may just get the RG8x,, that should work, correct? Thanks. George

So, if you want to do some rewiring / wire rerouting now (rather than wait), and you desire pre-made cable assemblies (which I think is a good idea), then off-the-top-of-my-head you have 3 options:

a) wait 'til you can get what you want

b) use the RG-8x cable (which is just fine, as long as you understand that it isn't as physically heavy-duty as the larger RG-213)

c) buy a cable assembly from somewhere else (Texas Towers used to make up cable assemblies, but no more....and while Cable Experts has a good reputation, and some ham radio retailers resell their cables, I don't have personal experience with them....and Universal Radio also sells cable assemblies, made by ABR)


To summarize: you can use the RG-8x cable assembly from DX engineering (or a RG-213 assembly from Cable Experts), or just wait...

If it were me, and I needed a cable assembly now, I'd use the RG-8x assembly from DX Engineering....
But, like I keep writing....I'm not there...


Hope this helps.

John

[gchabs]

Thanks John, it does help. While I don't imagine going down to the boat this week, I hope to do so once the weather breaks a bit. Waiting till the end of August (with no guarantee that DX will have the RG-213 at that time), is something I don't want to do unless I run out of options. I'll check the other sources and make a decision. Thanks again. George