EU vs US electric

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Dave22q

Adapt means use EU shore power with minimal changes. if I start by putting a EU socket on an American 12v/30a shore power cable what else is necessary? Smaller fuse at socket, install an inverter to step down the voltage, reset or replace my pro mariner 1240 charger, etc. I know the cycles change but am not sure it matters, my AC equipment is reasonably basic - microwave, coffee pot, refrigerator, freezer, laptop, Cruiseair air conditioning, tv. Additionally can I set this up so I can still run everything off my Westerbeke 4KW generator when not on shore power?

Isolation transformers like the Victron one will step down all the power going to the boat to 120v. This will not change the frequency, however, which remains 50 hz

110v 60 hz Cruiseair air conditioning will work on 50 hz with slightly reduced efficiency. You'll need to check the other gear. Anything which won't work on 50 hertz could be run off an inverter.

While running on the generator, obviously the whole system will be at whatever the generator outputs. There should be no problems.

[Dave22q]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Sorry, this is not true. Standard mains voltage in every European country without exception is 220v or 230v and 50 hertz frequency. France included.

There is very limited 110v power just for power tools used outdoors, generally supplied via transformers. Not relevant to us.

thanks for the clarification. Assuming I run everything through DC using an inverter. Would an 800 watt inverter be too much for my pro mariner 1240 with 375 AH battery bank. Exactly what changes do I need on the shore power inlet end?

[travellerw]

Originally Posted by Dave22q

thanks for the clarification. Assuming I run everything through DC using an inverter. Would an 800 watt inverter be too much for my pro mariner 1240 with 375 AH battery bank. Exactly what changes do I need on the shore power inlet end?

You have asked a completely different question here... What do you want to run through that 800W inverter.. No it probably won't run your microwave, DEFINATELY not your AC. It will your coffee maker (with limited other devices).

Now, not to be a dick (my wifes says I have this problem), but this stuff is easily figurable with some maths and research.

An 800W invervter will draw 62 amps on 12V at full 800W (A = Watts divided by volts, in this case 800 divided by 13V (roughly)). So your charger needs to provide 62a if you are running your inverter at full load. However, that would be super rare to run it full bore the whole time so this is where Ah (amp hours comes into play). Lets say, on average you drew 15A over a 24 hour period, that would be 360AH. So you would need to provide that much Ah of charging to break even (between your solar in the day and charger at night). If your average draw was 15A, then you would want a charger that put out about 18-20A (some slush). The 2040 puts out 40A so you would be golden... (15A standing draw is pretty big, we draw about 9 with fridge, freezer, lights and some other items)

HOWEVER.. and a BIG HOWEVER.. If you were away from the dock and provided no charging during night, then your very small 375A battery bank would be exhausted by morning If you didn't input any charging (cloudy day and no generator) then you would be at risk of running those batts below the %50 mark by about 10AM!

Now the best way to wire it.. Personally, I would find a 240 rated switch and wire a pigtail to the charger (a pigtail is a small length of wire with an appropriate connector on the end). In this case the pigtail would have a 220V connector (changable for each country). You would change the switch (diconnecting the charger from the boat AC circuit and connecting it to the 220V pigtail), then use an extension cord through a hatch to the pigtail. Boom, your charger is accepting 220V and the boat is isolated from potential accidental voltage issues. On our boat, having 40 available through 12V would be pure majestic.. Damn.. Fans galore..

[jstevens]

Here is link to the article Jack Tyler wrote on this subject in 2005. Although I doubt he has looked at it for the past 5 years, I think it still provides a fairly thorough explanation of the issues and potential solutions.
As to the 50Hz issue, just contact the manufacturers of the 120VAC appliances that you want to have on board and ask them if they will run on 50Hz. For those that won't run at 50Hz, either replace them before you leave or plan for a 240VAC circuit on the boat so you can buy the European equivalent appliance once you arrive (something you may want to be able to do regardless).
Other friends who cruised in Europe for about 8 years prepared their boat with only 12VDC devices. The only electrical appliance they had to worry about was the battery charger, for that they either bought one that worked on both 120VAC and 240VAC or swapped it out after they arrived. Most modern charges don't care about the Hz. Even my 17 year old Xantrex charger worked fine at 50Hz and 120VAC supplied by a transformer.

John

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by jstevens

The only electrical appliance they had to worry about was the battery charger, for that they either bought one that worked on both 120VAC and 240VAC or swapped it out after they arrived. Most modern charges don't care about the Hz. Even my 17 year old Xantrex charger worked fine at 50Hz and 120VAC supplied by a transformer.

John

Most modern chargers - Victron, Promariner Pronautic P, Xantrex - are built for world voltage - 120 or 230 volts, 50 or 60 cycles.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by travellerw

. . So your charger needs to provide 62a if you are running your inverter at full load. . . .

Misleading.

If your batteries are not approaching fully discharged condition you can run your 800w inverter for some period of time regardless of how many amps your charger puts out.

If your charger is capable of putting out 25amp but the battery is only accepting 7amps then it will be putting out 7amps. If you then crank up a 800w load (800w / 12v = 67amp) the charger will ramp up to 25amps, and the battery will start discharging at 42amps (67a - 25a =42a).
The bank is 375a-h. Let's assume that the SoC is 80% when the 42a load starts and that you want to cut off discharge at 50% SoC to maintain longevity of the bank. That means you have 112a-hr to use if there are not other loads and you ignore capacity changes due to rate of discharge. Thus you can run the 800w load for 2h40m (112a-h / 42a = 2.67hr) until you reach 50% SoC.

There may be duty cycle issues with running the charger flat out for that long, but if there is a battery in the system is should be carrying the balance of the load for a period.

Originally Posted by Dave22q

thanks for the clarification. Assuming I run everything through DC using an inverter. Would an 800 watt inverter be too much for my pro mariner 1240 with 375 AH battery bank. Exactly what changes do I need on the shore power inlet end?

If the charger will run on 230v then you need either a new cord or an adapter at the end of the existing cord. Given that the existing cord is size to deal with 110v it will have no problems with 220v. Different parts of Europe may have different plugs so you need to research where you plan to go for what the standard plugs are there. There is a link below you can start with. The problem with this is that locking plugs are probably used in marinas like the in the US and what the standard locking plugs are for a given area is harder to determine on-line.

What you might consider doing is going with a pig tail socket. That is a socket that fits your existing cord's plug end, and has a short length of cord coming out the back end with bare wires to attach a new plug to. Whenever you pull into someplace with a new plug type, it's time for a trip to the local hardware store to get the plug that fits the marina's outlets.

http://www.worldstandards.eu/electri...ard-voltage/re difficult to research.

If you want to run AC you are going to be out of luck. The frequency change is too big a problem.

If you want to run heat you can't do that thru your inverter so then get a 2-3kw step-down transformer and a locally procured 1500w heater. You will still have issues with standard plug types but I there is ready supply adapters for standard plugs where ever you go, nobody wants to turn down tourist dollars.

[robbievardon]

Apologies to all, 110 should have read 210v based on my experience of 9 years living fulltime in France where the infrastructure is not the most reliable of things.In rural France where I live it is common practise to pull out all plugs including telephone and television ariels during thunderstorms. The 110v in the UK is the only legal mains power voltage for workers on Construction/worksites.

[travellerw]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Misleading.

If your batteries are not approaching fully discharged condition you can run your 800w inverter for some period of time regardless of how many amps your charger puts out.

If your charger is capable of putting out 25amp but the battery is only accepting 7amps then it will be putting out 7amps. If you then crank up a 800w load (800w / 12v = 67amp) the charger will ramp up to 25amps, and the battery will start discharging at 42amps (67a - 25a =42a).
The bank is 375a-h. Let's assume that the SoC is 80% when the 42a load starts and that you want to cut off discharge at 50% SoC to maintain longevity of the bank. That means you have 112a-hr to use if there are not other loads and you ignore capacity changes due to rate of discharge. Thus you can run the 800w load for 2h40m (112a-h / 42a = 2.67hr) until you reach 50% SoC.

Ok you win.. I tried to keep it as simple as possible based on the questions asked by the OP. Yup techincally the above math is true.. Good on you, you get an A for effort.

Again if you look at my above posts.. The question the OP asked is not a simple one and has multiple answers (that can be complext with loads of math).

I tried to give the simple answer based on a year and a half living in an area where we switch from 120V to 220V and back on a regular basis. With a 40A charger, you should be fine if you run only 12V devices using a pigtail. Nope we don't run a microwave, AC, or hot water heater (well maybe the hot water heater if you are careful). Theory is cool, but backed up with fact, is better! I don't have the budget for AC or other high draw devices. I hope someone with experience on with those will comment about moving back and forth on voltage and hz.

[sck5]

I had this issue and just added a mastervolt 220v charger. The only downside is I cant run air conditioning when plugged into a 220v dock but I can live with that. You could also buy a cheap air conditioner when you get there and figure out a way to mount it in a hatch and plug it into the dock pedestal. Otherwise you are dealing with both different voltage and different cycles. Expensive to try to convert both.

[Nightsky]

I've never been to Europe so don't know what their 240v shore power plugs look like. Are they similar/same as our 250v/30 AMP, 4 prong twist lock plugs? Even if they aren't, couldn't you make your own pigtail adapter and only hook up one hot leg (120v) to supply your boat with 120v? This wouldn't deal with the 50 Hz frequency, but from what I have read here, many( some) onboard appliances will work OK on 50 Hz. Perhaps a frequency converter can be used to handle this if needed (1700w $150-$200).

[roland stockham]

Simple answer is don't use shore power. You have a 4kw generator and there is now way you will burn enough diesel using it to justify changing gear to plug in shore power. Generating your own A/C is also safer than plugging into possibly dodge shore power. Unless you are heading for N Africa you will rarely need air con'

[jstevens]

"... couldn't you make your own pigtail adapter and only hook up one hot leg (120v) to supply your boat with 120v? "
The power at most dock receptacles is single phase 240VAC. The only way to do what you ask is to open the dock power pedestal and re-wire it, something the marina is unlikely to allow.

John

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by Nightsky

I've never been to Europe so don't know what their 240v shore power plugs look like. Are they similar/same as our 250v/30 AMP, 4 prong twist lock plugs? Even if they aren't, couldn't you make your own pigtail adapter and only hook up one hot leg (120v) to supply your boat with 120v? This wouldn't deal with the 50 Hz frequency, but from what I have read here, many( some) onboard appliances will work OK on 50 Hz. Perhaps a frequency converter can be used to handle this if needed (1700w $150-$200).

In Europe their 240 volt AC is wired similar to out 120 volts - single hot, neutral, and earth. While our 240 is 4 wire theirs is 3 wire so the above will not work.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by mitiempo

In Europe their 240 volt AC is wired similar to out 120 volts - single hot, neutral, and earth. While our 240 is 4 wire theirs is 3 wire so the above will not work.

220/230 volts.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Nightsky

Even if they aren't, couldn't you make your own pigtail adapter and only hook up one hot leg (120v) to supply your boat with 120v?

US 220/240 Volt supply uses a different method to Europe.

US uses two different phased 110V legs (plus neutral and earth)

Europe uses a single phase 240V leg, (plus neutral and earth)