Fuel Cells:Anyone have links or thoughts

[JohnnyChristo]

Hi All [emoji4]
I’ve been looking at you tube vids and some websites about fuel cells.

https://youtu.be/N7VYsXuvWXs

So from what I’ve learnt using the “EFOy” it approximates average daily use about $3.50 USD a day to use as an alternative to using the motor to keep the batteries in good charge. It cuts in at about 12.3v and delivers enough charge depending on requirements.
So I’m thinking that plus a minimal amount of solar panels and possibly a wind generator maybe enough.
What’s your thoughts?

[Rapanui]

Rather than minimum amount of solar panels, you would be best to fit the maximum solar capacity you can. Fuel cells like the Efoy are expensive to purchase and run for their output, and have a relatively short life before the fuel cell needs replacing/ refurbing. If you can fit it, solar is the most cost effective solution.

[JohnnyChristo]

Ah 👌k well I didn’t know about the life of a fuel cell I shall look into it.
Thanks

[danstanford]

I have heard nothing but good things about using fuel cells for this application.

[bdgWesternMass]

www.efoy-pro.com

Here is the most commercial one that I know of. It uses Methanol fuel cartridge.

[wholybee]

He said he goes through 1 5l bottle of methanol every 10 days. Where do you buy methanol? How do you safely store it on your boat? Common gasses like lpg can be hard to find. I would hate to be dependent on something like that.

And for the price, you can have a lithium battery and a solar array that will do a lot more than 140 Ah per day.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by JohnnyChristo

Hi All [emoji4]
I’ve been looking at you tube vids and some websites about fuel cells.

https://youtu.be/N7VYsXuvWXs

So from what I’ve learnt using the “EFOy” it approximates average daily use about $3.50 USD a day to use as an alternative to using the motor to keep the batteries in good charge. It cuts in at about 12.3v and delivers enough charge depending on requirements.
So I’m thinking that plus a minimal amount of solar panels and possibly a wind generator maybe enough.
What’s your thoughts?

#1 I think these are very cool.

#2 While cool they are expensive and I just noticed they reduced the "guaranteed" output to 3000H from 5000H when they first launched.

We have quoted a a number of these but we quote them honestly. So far we have only had two owners bite.

After doing the research you'll find it to be a rather expensive way of generating power. They are cool and cutting edge and quiet but a 5000 hour life (now only guaranteeing 3000 hours), on a low charge current device, that may need to run 24/7/365 means a 210 day life @ 5000 hours) is low and can get expensive.

5000 Hours / *24 = 208.3 Days
3000 Hours / *24 = 125 Days
*may not run 24/7 and can be boat specific.

The boats we typically quote can be very power hungry and they typically need to run 24/7.

If the unit only lasts 125 Days for guaranteed output that is cost of fuel + cost of unit / 125 days = total cost.. If we just take the unit cost of $5500.00 (210 model) and divide that by 125 days (3k hours @ 24/7 use) that is $44.00 per day just in unit cost and does not include the fuel.

The biggest problem, other than expense ($5500.00 for the 210), is that even the EFOY 210 only pumps out 8.8A of charge current. Wind and solar can easily exceed this, and for less than 1/4 the installed price.

The fuel cells also need to be purchased directly from EFOY, and are pretty pricey... Over the long haul the hourly cost of the unit, the fuel cells, and how much current we use on cruising boats, it's a tough sell until they can get these up to a higher output.

The fuel cost for these units is quite steep. Roughly $27.00 per gallon plus shipping. A single 140W solar panel will produce 40 +/- Ah's /day for no additional cost in fuel.

Our closest EFOY dealer is in MA and when I priced it out last time for a customer who wanted the straight dope on them I found that shipping an M-10 fuel-cell, which is 2.6 GAL, it costs nearly $112.00 (just shipping) to get from MA to ME due to the fact that it had to go FedEX and was classified as Haz Mat shipping. So 2.6 GAL / $182.00 (M10 = $70.00 + $112.00 shipping) = $70.00 PER GALLON... That jumps the cost to well over $15.00 per 80Ah of charging and we've not even touch the hourly cost of the running the unit.

If you are a long distance cruiser I think the 5000 hours expected life (now only guaranteeing 3000 hours) and fuel availability make it a lot more expensive than most assume.

Please do all the math for where you are located.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by wholybee

He said he goes through 1 5l bottle of methanol every 10 days. Where do you buy methanol? How do you safely store it on your boat? Common gasses like lpg can be hard to find. I would hate to be dependent on something like that.



And for the price, you can have a lithium battery and a solar array that will do a lot more than 140 Ah per day.

140Ahr production would require about 450W of panels.

[Sailnav]

Here's a link to an American in France who uses fuel cells aboard his boat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7VYsXuvWXs&t=154s

[JohnnyChristo]

Wow some good thoughts.
Yes I’d seen Patrick’s YouTube that’s what got me onto it.
However I don’t like the idea of all that methanol under the seat as he stores it.
In reply to others
Yes solar panels wind vaine etc are great. I was thinking use to mainly stop having to run the motor or a generator. Which will happen daily as I’m a big power user.

JC

[JohnnyChristo]

Well that is a very concise reply much appreciated.
3000 hrs is a lot so that’s about a euro an hour on top of the methanol cost. Worth considering.
I suppose what it comes down to is what the disposable income is.
In regards to lithium batteries I will replace all lead cell as they start to reach their life expectancy.
Thanks again for your input to all. I’m sure many will benefit from this thread.
I must look into what’s involved in making methanol it can’t be to hard.

[tanglewood]

Another comparison is the equivalent daily runtime of a generator to produce the same power as the EFOY 210 running 24hrs. For a 5kw generator, 30 minutes of run time will produce the same amount of power as 24hrs running the EFOY 210, and would burn about a quart/liter of diesel.

[JohnnyChristo]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

Another comparison is the equivalent daily runtime of a generator to produce the same power as the EFOY 210 running 24hrs. For a 5kw generator, 30 minutes of run time will produce the same amount of power as 24hrs running the EFOY 210, and would burn about a quart/liter of diesel.

True but is noisy and needs to be got out started etc. which is 👌k but isn’t automatic.

[Na Mara]

I’m in a similar place a johnny. I need a reliable supply of 150Ah a day to keep my boat running over an ocean and about a half of that at anchor. However, sailing mostly in Northern Europe I am rarely far from a plug socket. So what I need is a system that will mostly be redundant, except on the few occasions when I temporarily go off piste. A wind generator simply isn’t reliable enough where I sail and it will make a racket in the aft cabin, and solar panels will either have to located somewhere ineffective (pilothouse roof under the boom) or else on an arch at the back of the boat (which will be an underutilized eyesore on my boat). So having done a lot of sole searching and thinking about my needs, I have narrowed it down to the smallest onboard diesel generator I can get (2kW panduro), or a fuel cell.

Pros of the diesel generator.
1. Uses fuel already shipped aboard and readily available.
2. Can be set up to run automatically when battery charge is low.
3. Will fit in my insulated engine bay so will be pretty quiet in use.
4. Heats water for free.
5. Standard, easily repaired equipment.
6. Long lifespan.
7. Allows for high power electronics and 230V electronics (dive compressors, AC units, crash pumps, etc)
8. Fuel is cheap (about 250euro for a years supply).

Cons of generator
1. Costs about twice the fuel cell to install.
2. Uses dinojuice and thus is ‘’old tech’’ that may even be legislated against in the EU within the next decade or so (of course they might also start producing lots of synth fuel as well so you never know).
3. Requires regular maintenance.
4. Relatively noisy.
5. Requires a larger battery bank if you don’t want it have to run it daily.

Pros of fuel cell.
1. Easy and cheap to install (much cheaper to purchase and install than a generator)
2. Clean in use
3. Minimal maintenance
4. Silent
5. Plug and play so in worst case you can just exchange units (you can even carry a spare in case of emergencies)
6. Light weight
7. Can allow for a reduction in battery bank size, thereby further decreasing weight and cost.

Fuel Cell cons.
1. Short lifespan. (Basically, if this is my only source of power and I was living aboard, then I would chew through its lifespan within a year. More realistically, including engine and shore charging, I would need to renew the unit every two years if living aboard)
2. Fuel is only readily available in the North Atlantic.
3. Fuel has to be shipped separately and for full autonomy across the pond and through the Carribean you will need about 200l of the stuff which means stowing 20 10l jugs.
4. Won’t support high load items (max supply is 8A at 12 V)
5. No hot water.
6. Fuel is expensive (about 2000 euro for a year’s supply).

Funnily enough, I just this minute had a chat with the yard chief about what would be best and his thoughts were as follows.

1. Outside of Europe getting fuel for the fuel cell can be problematic at best (and he included North America in this statement) and its down right dangerous to carry serious amounts of methanol aboard to get around this problem. I hand’t thought of that but his point was that in the event of a boat fire, the methanol in those cartridges is deadly. As soon as the fire melts through the first cartridge, if you have more than one or two cartridges aboard, you are dead. The whole boat will go up like a Roman candle. 1 or two cartridges wont make a big difference to the how the fire progresses, 5-10 on the other hand would be lethal and 20-30 you could see from space (my words not his).

2. Diesel generators can be set up to come on automatically to charge the batteries as they get low.

3. Finally, he thinks that he can make the system almost silent in use on my boat. Inside its cover the typical generator is about 50db in volume, but inside my noise insulated engine bay he reckons that will drop to maybe 40 db and he reckons there is space for it there. I can cope with that level of noise for 1 hr every 2-4 days.

So I have asked him to quote for the generator installation. We’ll see then what the damage will be.

The two things that really swung my decision were the fuel availability-dangers of carry methanol dilemma and that niggling voice in the back of my head telling me that maybe I might want to sail farther afield in the future. Should that day come, I’ll want a generator. Fingers crossed that they commercialize synthdiesel, or I might be buying into a dying technology here.

[seandepagnier]

What about other fuel cells besides efoy? I think they are very expensive option, and there are other ways to make fuel cells.