Good/Best Tiller Autopilot

[tomtriad]

Your autopilot, no matter what the brand, will work a lot better if you balance your sails. Looks like you have a lot of weather helm and that you are overworking the helm. Even if the AP is rated for a 10,000 lb boat, it is assumed you will trim the sails properly - a bigger hammer is not going to help much. It might pay to read the book and check that your installation is correct - looks like the AP stud is mounted pretty far aft on you tiller, making for less leverage and more force needed. Also, if the AP mount on the seat is too far away, you will run out of throw (which may be why you have to relocate the unit when you tack).

[Phil_Fr]

@Thomm225 :
If you want to repair your ST2000 tiller, here are two links very useful, but in French. I have repaired mine (fully exploded 5 years ago!!) and it works very well now. Use Google Translator to read in English :


https://www.equinoxefr.org/post/2012...marine-st2000/
Architecture du ST 2000


On "Hisse et of French forum, my name is PhilippeG and I explain by photos and text how I've proceeded.
A lot of peoples in France have troubles with this tiller and they fully repair it with those links. This tiller is very expensive in France, that's because we repair and fix definitively it.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by tomtriad

Your autopilot, no matter what the brand, will work a lot better if you balance your sails. Looks like you have a lot of weather helm and that you are overworking the helm. Even if the AP is rated for a 10,000 lb boat, it is assumed you will trim the sails properly - a bigger hammer is not going to help much. It might pay to read the book and check that your installation is correct - looks like the AP stud is mounted pretty far aft on you tiller, making for less leverage and more force needed. Also, if the AP mount on the seat is too far away, you will run out of throw (which may be why you have to relocate the unit when you tack).

Yes, balancing the sails would definitely lighten the load on the rudder and tiller but you only saw a very short piece of film of the tiller at work. The wind was bouncing around from on the beam to starboard stern quarter.

Also, my boom (and sail foot) is over 12' long so the boat is going to have a naturally heavy weather helm especially since the luff of the sail is only 25'5" which is pretty standard on these older designs. The jib is maybe a 120% which helps but a larger one would be nice also. It's pretty standard on these older

If I try and balance too much on the upwind in heavy air I'll be lucky to sail within 80 degrees of the wind. My last racing beach cat was the opposite. Boom length (sail foot) around 6' -7' and luff 30' and I could point close to 30 degrees off

As far as the throw, my problem is the opposite. The newer pilots are too long and I run out of room to the inside which usually occurs during strong wind upwind so I have to recalibrate to the opposite side

I tested the pilot on Saturday. The video is pretty crappy (and the camera battery died) but it does show the pilot easily handing the boat......but it was off the wind. It was a North wind with holes changing direction and speed. Also I usually close the hasp on the lazarette on long tack but this was a day sail test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoGoTGmy6cA

[01kiwijohn]

Your boat is well within the parameters for that pilot, so you should probably check a few associated things first. Have you changed the damping? Maybe, with your sail trim it is working way too hard? If over trimmed, is the tiller load too high?
For comparison; I have the same model, use to to steer my monitor vane. Bought used for $60 5 years ago and it has recently steered all the way to and from Alaska. (there's not a lot of wind up there).

[01kiwijohn]

On looking at the video, that unit is doing an awful lot of steering considering the amount of wind you're sailing in, so the sail trim may be exacerbating it. It also looks like the pivot may be too close to the rudder post head, reducing it's mechanical advantage. That will definitely cause the thread to be overloaded.

[Matt Johnson]

It's working now, but why wouldn't you correct the tiller and autopilot issue? It should be a simple fix for both and give a heck of a lot better reliability and usability to your autopilot. You should not have to move the autopilot from side to side to tack.

Matt

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by 01kiwijohn

Your boat is well within the parameters for that pilot, so you should probably check a few associated things first. Have you changed the damping? Maybe, with your sail trim it is working way too hard? If over trimmed, is the tiller load too high?
For comparison; I have the same model, use to to steer my monitor vane. Bought used for $60 5 years ago and it has recently steered all the way to and from Alaska. (there's not a lot of wind up there).

I've no problems with the tiller at all that is until, as I found out later, the shaft came unscrewed.

I was monkeying around with it when they discovered tools/weapons) not wanting to open it and void the warranty when I decided to try screwing in the shaft and that was the problem

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by 01kiwijohn

On looking at the video, that unit is doing an awful lot of steering considering the amount of wind you're sailing in, so the sail trim may be exacerbating it. It also looks like the pivot may be too close to the rudder post head, reducing it's mechanical advantage. That will definitely cause the thread to be overloaded.

You cannot really see what the wind is doing from the crappy video. It's gusting quite a bit.

I had to set my beer down 20 minutes early and change the tiller over because an increase in the wind and a direction change basically laid the boat almost over on it's side because the tiler ran out of room to the inside.

It was in process of turning back to windward but I was able to uncleat the main and settle things down

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

It's working now, but why wouldn't you correct the tiller and autopilot issue? It should be a simple fix for both and give a heck of a lot better reliability and usability to your autopilot. You should not have to move the autopilot from side to side to tack.

Matt

Why? Because I have enough projects to complete on the boat (I'm pulling it November 1) and the tiller works well where it is and since I'm not racing any more where you are almost constantly tacking or gybing, it's not a problem.

Plus I don't want to build a special platform to mount the tiller on.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by 01kiwijohn

On looking at the video, that unit is doing an awful lot of steering considering the amount of wind you're sailing in, so the sail trim may be exacerbating it. It also looks like the pivot may be too close to the rudder post head, reducing it's mechanical advantage. That will definitely cause the thread to be overloaded.

Also, it was a north wind. We have Notherly winds due to fronts. These winds have lots of holes. The video you saw was left over wind from hurricane michael.

This video is again in a Northerly wind from a front that just rolled in. There wasn't enough wind to sail against the tide an hour or so before this and it was hot. then the front approached, the winds started to crank up, and the temp dropped 20 degrees. I still hadn't put my shirt back on yet (I just have my harness on ) because things were happening pretty fast and the boat is a wreck with crap going all over. I decided I'd fix it later.

The jib is rolled in a little because I don't want it to come down by overloading the one head strap that's left. It's only being held up by the one strap that is tied and tapped to the shackle which is attached to the head swivel

Winds came up to about 19 knots and gusty but I'm almost to Mobjack Bay. You can just see the headland at New Point Comfort Light ahead maybe 3-5 miles
Tiller working at 25 seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3I2zc0_7wY

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Phil_Fr

@Thomm225 :
If you want to repair your ST2000 tiller, here are two links very useful, but in French. I have repaired mine (fully exploded 5 years ago!!) and it works very well now. Use Google Translator to read in English :


https://www.equinoxefr.org/post/2012...marine-st2000/
Architecture du ST 2000


On "Hisse et of French forum, my name is PhilippeG and I explain by photos and text how I've proceeded.
A lot of peoples in France have troubles with this tiller and they fully repair it with those links. This tiller is very expensive in France, that's because we repair and fix definitively it.

Thanks, but I already fixed it.

Now I need to work on the Simrad but I may need a new circuit board

[gulfislandfred]

I've had good luck with the Raymarine ST 1000 and 2000, and wheel units. Several different units, usually bought used, over 30 years, on maybe ten different boats, 23 to 41 feet. Never had a failure. Sailish Sea sailing, tide rips, Strait of Juan De Fuca, Strait of Georgia, lots of time on genoa alone, which can make the steering heavy.



The Pelagic looks good, though. Raymarine can sell you a brain and stronger cylinder separate (ST 4000, I think) but it will cost a lot more than the Pelagic.

[Pauls]

Let's deal with basics. An autopilot is an electro-mechanical tool. It is designed to have a certain life at a certain work load. Increase the workload and the life decreases. Rating the tiller workload based on a boats displacement may be necessary to simplify things for the public but it is very inaccurate. Compare two boats, each 10,000 lbs displacement. One has a balanced spade rudder, the other has a keel hung rudder. The load required on the keel hung rudder will be about 3 times that of the load required on the balanced spade. And this does not take into account loads from sail trim, an unbalanced rig, etc.

If you want a long, trouble free life from any machinery onboard you want it to be oversized from "manufacturer recommendations".

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by Pauls

Compare two boats, each 10,000 lbs displacement. One has a balanced spade rudder, the other has a keel hung rudder. The load required on the keel hung rudder will be about 3 times that of the load required on the balanced spade.

AMEN.

I have repaired/replaced drives for my ST4000T/GP more times than I can count. When I first bought one the marketing seemed to indicate that it could handle Carina's displacement; through time they have reduced the maximum displacement but haven't addressed the fact that they will be overwhelmed with loads on a heavy boat with a barn door rudder. The length of the boat is not important: I have no doubt the ST4000T/GP, and the SX-5, will handle a 40' or 50' boat with a balanced rudder - just not a heavy 31' boat with an unbalanced rudder.

I am a big fan of Bryan's work at Pelagic - I like simple and sturdy. We have talked about what it would take to install a more robust linear drive for use with the RM controller, and it is not a simple replacement. The drives I have been looking at would draw more current than the controller could provide, so the signal would have to be amplified. Since it is an on/off (PWM) affair an H-bridge could be used, available cheap on the internet (look for another recent AP thread). The H-bridge should also have over-current protection. More recent RM autopilots do not always bring the off state to 0V, so a comparator with a 6V-7V reference might be needed, but all pretty simple for a DIY electrical project. The servo I am most interested in has an internal reference potentiometer that could be used by the RM AP to advantage (for rudder position), plus it has end-of-travel cutoff switches so it won't beat itself to death as RM APs like to do. Unfortunately I don't have a link at the moment as I had a sudden loss of my motherboard that is taking some time for recovery.

As others have stated, the old RM compass design is inferior and obsolete (some of us might just call it cheap crap). RM has more recently moved on to solid state sensors, but anyone with the old compass might benefit from installing an electronic compass and select that as the heading source for the AP.

Instead of trying to upgrade an RM AP, it is hard to deny the attraction of the Pelagic package as a turnkey solution.

Greg

[Pauls]

Hey Greg,

And others who would like to use an autopilot, preferably cheap and with low power consumption, there is a way. For any boat with a transom hung rudder, it is fairly simple to add a trim tab to the back of that rudder and to then power that trim tab with a tiller pilot. The trim tab reduces loads to practically nothing, even on a large, heavy, barn door type rudder.

Trim tabs are commonly used on windvane systems. But because they can steer with the little power available from a wind vane they can also steer with a small tiller pilot. It is a very efficient system.