Hall of Shame. Johnson Ultima switch

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by poiu

Ah, Jabsco. Part of Xylem, the makers of a potential entrant into the Hall of Shame. The Jabsco macerating leaky, rusty and early failing toilet pumps. And under their Rule brand makers of the worst range of switches. I hope you have luck with it. An on-line search finds people who say it blocks and fails just like every switch out there apparently.

I see a business opportunity in this for someone, and quite an interesting challenge. The never-fail bilge switch.

I managed to make a Rule float-switch (that superswitch) work in my grey water tank for 5 years before it failed which was better than any switch of the same design. But I used a self-cleaning setup which won't work for bilge switch.

I agree with you that rotating macerator pumps are horrible and Jabsco belongs to the worst. But that doesn't mean you get to boycott them because the next product can be the best. I have their fresh water VSD pumps in operation for 13 years now without a single failure and zero maintenance. I now bought overhaul kits to replace the rubber parts and am confident they will go another decade.

The air pressure operated switches don't fail, don't block. The switch is not wet ever, it is a completely different mechanism than the traditional switches.

[sparrowhawk1]

It seems to me that having no seal where the wire goes into the switch was a huge quality control oversight. I've tried numerous switches over the years and had great luck with Johnson's. The models I've used had a ball that makes a positive contact, as far as I know no circuit board. The ultra( $150 on Amazon) and air pressure type switches are super expensive. Not to be rude but it's hard for me to believe you did not notice that the wires were not sealed when you took it out of the box.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by sparrowhawk1

It seems to me that having no seal where the wire goes into the switch was a huge quality control oversight. I've tried numerous switches over the years and had great luck with Johnson's. The models I've used had a ball that makes a positive contact, as far as I know no circuit board. The ultra( $150 on Amazon) and air pressure type switches are super expensive. Not to be rude but it's hard for me to believe you did not notice that the wires were not sealed when you took it out of the box.

The Jabsco air pressure switch that I linked to is just $50. Not that I think it's cheap, but not anywhere near the Ultra pricing.

[sparrowhawk1]

Okay maybe not super expensive but not to nitpick 52.99 compared to 12.99 for a Johnson

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by sparrowhawk1

It seems to me that having no seal where the wire goes into the switch was a huge quality control oversight. I've tried numerous switches over the years and had great luck with Johnson's. The models I've used had a ball that makes a positive contact, as far as I know no circuit board. The ultra( $150 on Amazon) and air pressure type switches are super expensive. Not to be rude but it's hard for me to believe you did not notice that the wires were not sealed when you took it out of the box.

Oh I forgot the Johnsons switches; I have the same type with the ball inside and they are for high water alarm and keep working. But I test by lifting them by hand, so not sure if the float housing will still actually float with that heavy steel ball in there. Also, for bilge pump service, it needs to pass a lot of current, much more than for testing with a pump that is running dry. It is that part that I fear and it is very hard to test. These switches and pumps should be in little compartments, 4 walls and open top, with some holes in the walls open to the rest of the bilge that can easily be plugged so that some water can be put in and contained for testing. Crazy but I would be crazy enough to build it.

[CSY Man]

. No, the one that failed aboard Jedi in 2004 was in my grey water tank. When an otherwise dry bilge floods with water, you will have the same amount of debris: plenty hair, grease, dirt etc. and it will foul the inside of that switch.

Flooded my bilge hundreds of times: Water tank drains into the bilge, switches been activated thousands of times.
Never had a problem with my Ultra switches, both were installed years ago and are still there with new owner.
Guess I was lucky, or you were not..

[jmschmidt]

I use the solid-state level detectors in conjunction with auto/manual switch panels with warning lights and buzzers. Have two installed. One failure in over fifteen years. Just wipe the sensors off every month or so. I'm too lazy to look up the brand but they are black with little dimples (the sensors) on the sealed case.

[Deltasailor]

A few years ago we were caught in a micro burst in Vliho Bay Levkas Greece.
We were anchored in 16' of water when we were hit. The boat inverted twice, the second time the mast head hit the sea bed. We righted and after fifteen minutes with the wind gone and we had a meter of water in the cabin. My wife switched on the bilge pump and within a couple of minutes it blocked with floating debris, I was on deck swinging on the manual pump which failed by (A) blocking (B) bending the pump handle (c) the aluminum fitting in the pump shattering. It's amazing how strong a 70 year old can be when terrified. We ended up doing the "Bucket and chuckit".
The 12 volt pump was by Rule the manual by plastimo. Both strum boxes blocked. You cannot depend on a small bilge pump to keep you afloat if you have a serious ingress of water.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Deltasailor

A few years ago we were caught in a micro burst in Vliho Bay Levkas Greece.
We were anchored in 16' of water when we were hit. The boat inverted twice, the second time the mast head hit the sea bed. We righted and after fifteen minutes with the wind gone and we had a meter of water in the cabin. My wife switched on the bilge pump and within a couple of minutes it blocked with floating debris, I was on deck swinging on the manual pump which failed by (A) blocking (B) bending the pump handle (c) the aluminum fitting in the pump shattering. It's amazing how strong a 70 year old can be when terrified. We ended up doing the "Bucket and chuckit".
The 12 volt pump was by Rule the manual by plastimo. Both strum boxes blocked. You cannot depend on a small bilge pump to keep you afloat if you have a serious ingress of water.

Most effective bilge pump is a scared sailor with a bucket...for a little while anyway. [emoji6]

Amazes me how much useless junk is sold as bilge pumps/switches. Would be a good open source like project to design and build a truly effective and reliable electric bilge pump.

[senzafine]

some types of septic systems use pumps to reduce level in the tank
and are activated by a float switch.have lived in two houses with this
type of system for total of about 15 years.never had to replace one.
just my experience but maybe worth a try.

[poiu]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I managed to make a Rule float-switch (that superswitch) work in my grey water tank for 5 years before it failed which was better than any switch of the same design. But I used a self-cleaning setup which won't work for bilge switch.

What is a self-cleaning setup?

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I agree with you that rotating macerator pumps are horrible and Jabsco belongs to the worst. But that doesn't mean you get to boycott them because the next product can be the best. I have their fresh water VSD pumps in operation for 13 years now without a single failure and zero maintenance. I now bought overhaul kits to replace the rubber parts and am confident they will go another decade.

I looked at that, it seems discontinued. Anyway, freshwater systems are a different animal, and much less prone to failure. I find it pretty unimpressive that a company relies on a brand that has both good and bad products. Terrible management and that doesn't inspire confidence in anything they do.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The air pressure operated switches don't fail, don't block. The switch is not wet ever, it is a completely different mechanism than the traditional switches.

They do certainly have less reason to fail and should be reliable, though I wonder if a very slow rise in water levels would trigger the switch. For example if water dripped in slowly at the same speed as the air pressure diffused into the water or leaked through the side wall of the tube.

I did read previously of someone saying on of these things blocked on them. I just searched for 5 minutes, but found nothing this time.

I think you are very optimistic to say anything doesn't fail, doesn't block. I take the opposite view. Everything fails eventually.

[poiu]

It's worth mentioning that the failure mode of the Johnson switch is to fail on. Johnson might thing this is a fail safe mode, but it isn't so without a big downside risk. The most likely scenario is you go away from the boat for a while, maybe leaving it in a marina without your charger connected. The switch fails, drains and destroys your batteries. It will only take a few days with a decent sized bilge pump.

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Deltasailor

A few years ago we were caught in a micro burst in Vliho Bay Levkas Greece.
We were anchored in 16' of water when we were hit. The boat inverted twice, the second time the mast head hit the sea bed. We righted and after fifteen minutes with the wind gone and we had a meter of water in the cabin. My wife switched on the bilge pump and within a couple of minutes it blocked with floating debris, I was on deck swinging on the manual pump which failed by (A) blocking (B) bending the pump handle (c) the aluminum fitting in the pump shattering. It's amazing how strong a 70 year old can be when terrified. We ended up doing the "Bucket and chuckit".
The 12 volt pump was by Rule the manual by plastimo. Both strum boxes blocked. You cannot depend on a small bilge pump to keep you afloat if you have a serious ingress of water.

Crikey, quite a cautionary tale. There was some discussion here about whether monohulls could every be blown over to invert by just the force of wind. Seems like your experience proved that issue. Maybe worth adding your experience to that thread:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ed-175996.html

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by poiu

Crikey, quite a cautionary tale. There was some discussion here about whether monohulls could every be blown over to invert by just the force of wind. Seems like your experience proved that issue. Maybe worth adding your experience to that thread:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ed-175996.html

Watch the movie "White Squall" IIRC. It is about vertical wind (downdraft) that creates an immediate capsize as soon as any heel let it catch the sails.

In a marina though... didn't hear that before :-o

[s/v Jedi]

Here is a picture that I fabricated to help explain it: this was taken after 5 years of no-maintenance full-time service and I just replaced the failed switch so the one in the picture looks new;

The 3/4" PVC pipe that the switch is attached to is the suction pipe for the pump, which is a Whale Gulper 220. So the switch is immediately above the pump suction which is what they tell you -not- to do. Then you see the 1.5" diameter sanitary hose right above it which is the gravity drain from every sink, shower etc. into the central grey water tank, which is inside my keel sump. This hose is directly over the switch and all that comes through it falls right on top of the switch. This again is what they tell you not to do. In practice, violating both rules creates a perfect setup.

I must add one factor that makes a difference: the switch does not directly switch the pump but a low current control circuit to a timer-solenoid. This is to keep the pump running longer and gets almost all the water out.

The mechanism for self cleaning is that while grey water entering the tank is washing the switch, the pump starts running and immediately sucks up anything that washes off the switch because it sucks from right under it :-)

Originally Posted by poiu

What is a self-cleaning setup?


I looked at that, it seems discontinued. Anyway, freshwater systems are a different animal, and much less prone to failure. I find it pretty unimpressive that a company relies on a brand that has both good and bad products. Terrible management and that doesn't inspire confidence in anything they do.


They do certainly have less reason to fail and should be reliable, though I wonder if a very slow rise in water levels would trigger the switch. For example if water dripped in slowly at the same speed as the air pressure diffused into the water or leaked through the side wall of the tube.

I did read previously of someone saying on of these things blocked on them. I just searched for 5 minutes, but found nothing this time.

I think you are very optimistic to say anything doesn't fail, doesn't block. I take the opposite view. Everything fails eventually.

Well I do that as well, but until there is a documented pattern we must assume this is the best switch to use. I did test it with very slow filling and it works every time, much more reliable than a float switch