Help In Selecting New Electronics

[ka4wja]

Maldwin,
I don't have any personal experience with FLIR systems on-board....(yep, kinda gimmicky to me...but, if you desire it, go-for-it!)

Originally Posted by Maldwin

I am interested in the Raymarine recommendation above, because I am thinking of replacing my Furuno TZTouch system with an Raymarine Axiom systen. I want to add FLIR, which seems to integrate much better with the Raymarine system where it offers color, and augmented reality. These may be gimmicks, but I think they may be very useful at night.
Best,
Maldwin

FYI, FLIR owns Raymarine....and just prior to Covid19 FLIR was looking into selling Raymarine or spinning it off on its own....
But, post-Covid19 (or at least now, during Covid19), they're pretty mum about it...

But, regardless of what happens in the future with FLIR and Raymarine business units, their products / systems are design to work well together...and they do.


Fair winds.

John

[ka4wja]

Norton,

1) Wow, do I hear 'ya!
Don't be surprised, I'm serious...I hear you and I understand your point...
(although, if you don't wish to even read about this topic, it is surprising that you decided to contribute to this discussion, but that is a good thing!)

Originally Posted by nortonscove

I'd consider this advice less than that about what boat one should buy. A friend of mine likes tinkering with his electronic toys more than sailing. I like sailing and try to avoid the vortex that is a suite of electronics and aim for simple and effective.

I usually and should have scrolled past this topic as in the past.

Fyi, I grew up cruising and sailing, and playing with electronics / communications, and have continued to do so, over the past 50 years....so, they became sort-of a part of me?

(and, since I've made my living in communications / electronics for more than 37 years....and sailing/cruising is my "hobby"....they've continued to be melded together, for me...probably weird to others, but it works for me...)




2) But, on point of this discussion, if I could just get two points across to my fellow sailors, regarding marine electronics, they would be:

---- You can have simple, easy-to-use, effective, and reliable marine electronics.....that are modern, versatile, share data, and perform many wonderful functions....these are not antitheses!

---- It is a myth/fallacy that a large or modern "electronics suite" (or any large / extensive / versatile, modern marine electronics system, with data sharing, etc.) must be complex/complicated, hard-to-use, and/or unreliable! It does not need to / should never be, a vortex!

I know these points fly in the face of what most layperson sailors are told....and the unfortunate part is that these points are also misunderstood / ignored by most marine electronics dealers / installers...

I'm truly sorry about that....please accept my apologies, and please try to believe the fact that much of the well-intended advice given by most is too complicated at best, and sometimes simply inaccurate....

I mean there are sailors that have "electronic suites" so complex they need a computer to run them....and others need to run a chartplotter 24/7 just to see their depth or GPS position....
I have personally see both of these set-ups (more than a few times), and each time I try to explain the facts, many simply ignore those facts (sometimes I suspect due to the fact that they "paid a professional" and think: "who the heck does this guy think he is?"....and sometimes, I think it's just because they already spent their $$$$$ and aren't willing to admit some of it was a waste, and/or under the false assumption that they'd need to spend more $$$ to correct their issues....)





In any case, Norton....sorry to have rambled on here....my point was just to say:
I understand where you're coming from!

And, fyi, there are some of us sailors who currently have other commitments that prevent us from sailing / voyaging as much as we like....(this week, I'm working / making $$$, so I can continue to care for my elderly mother....and I have the time today, while at client's office, to share some learned advice regarding marine electronics)




Fair winds.

John

[oldersalt1944]

We recently redid most of our electronics with Raymarine Axiom 12" Plotter with radar and AIS. Mostly chose Raymarine because it supports Navionics, which I was used to from using Navionics on my iPad. The plotter version of Navionics seems somewhat more detailed and feature-rich, but the iPad version is MUCH easier to use for setting up new routes in advance. So I still use both on my GB 32--plotter for better detail when needed, plus radar, depth display, and
AIS, and iPad for pre-setting route and following. After two years, all the Raymarine gear has performed without a hitch.


Good luck,
Oldersalt

"Everything on your boat is broken. You just don't know it yet."

[akopac]

Originally Posted by leandroflaherty

OpenCPN and a raspberry PI, save thousands and use that money for redundancy (buy spares) and improve other systems.

Yeah. I almost chimed in with the raspberry pi andand opencpn, but he’s looking for retail plug and play it sounds like. I love my opencpn system. It’s bulletproof and cheap for redundancy.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by akopac

Yeah. I almost chimed in with the raspberry pi andand opencpn, but he’s looking for retail plug and play it sounds like. I love my opencpn system. It’s bulletproof and cheap for redundancy.

I get it, but what about radar and/or sonar? And how about laylines, optimum VMG and those kinds of goodies that you get in the commercial systems?

Is it correct that OpenCPN can display any/some/one-type-only of WiFi Radar? If so, I suppose I could replace my perfectly good wired-only radar with a wireless one. But I’m not sure I trust WiFi for radar - on a dark and stormy night do I lose my radar image due to environmental interference?

For sonar I could go separate stand alone unit.

I would love to use OpenCPN as my primary navigation system and already have it as a planning tool. Help me!

[akopac]

In a nutshell. Opencpn has been under development for a very long time. You do not have to use WiFi for radar. Google opencpn radar plugins and look over the radar and other plugins.
Openplotter is your next step. Openplotter provides opencpn athe ability to tie into a lot of different equipment. You can take a raspberry pi and use it as a shipboard computer as well as a WiFi access point. Opencpn is able to oveRlay is,radar, grib and weather fax over navigation charts. Personally I run it on a raspberry pi (.35-.5 amps) with no screen and share the screen over it’s on WiFi access point onto a iPad. You can monitor everything even if you have to go down to do business in the head. If I said it cost $35 bucks to setup it hat would be only for a raspberry pi. Maybe $200 bucks including a moitesssie hat, power supply and sad cards...
Short video to show my bench project.
https://youtu.be/CcPqr14DECE

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by akopac

In a nutshell. Opencpn has been under development for a very long time. You do not have to use WiFi for radar. Google opencpn radar plugins and look over the radar and other plugins.
Openplotter is your next step. Openplotter provides opencpn athe ability to tie into a lot of different equipment. You can take a raspberry pi and use it as a shipboard computer as well as a WiFi access point. Opencpn is able to oveRlay is,radar, grib and weather fax over navigation charts. Personally I run it on a raspberry pi (.35-.5 amps) with no screen and share the screen over it’s on WiFi access point onto a iPad. You can monitor everything even if you have to go down to do business in the head. If I said it cost $35 bucks to setup it hat would be only for a raspberry pi. Maybe $200 bucks including a moitesssie hat, power supply and sad cards...
Short video to show my bench project.
https://youtu.be/CcPqr14DECE

I am already using a Pi 4 as a boat computer (lockdown project) and have installed OpenPlotter on top of the standard Buster install. Comms, network and charts all good so far. Waiting for a NMEA gateway to get all that data into OpenCPN and thence to other screens and apps.

How does a radar connect, as it doesn’t use NMEA? I expect it needs an RJ45 connection to the Pi or a network hub?

I have a perfectly good Raymarine digital radar, but it must plug into the mfd and doesn’t have an RJ45 connection. As well, the radar plugin does not show Raymarine radars as working. So I would need to buy a new radar, presumably Garmin or Simrad. That’s starting to get risky.

[Divedoug68]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

Just go to west marine and poke at all of the displays.

That how we decided on what we got. I like the garmin menus (they’re intuitive), but I liked the chart selections available for ray marine more.

This is a good suggestion! Kick the tires on as many options as possible. I replaced ours a couple of years ago after a lightning strike. We had Raymarine and so I purchased the same. Updated versions nonetheless along with a new AIS. Only component we did not replace was radar because it was still functional. In the end I like my Raymarine for some of the reasons already stated. However, intuitive software is not in Raymarine's vocabulary. The components work well together and we feel comfortable with our setup. However, having been on board a friends vessel with Garmin I was blown away with the ease of use. Integration and difference in display and data options was really nice.

[akopac]

Originally Posted by Zzmeyer

Above advice all good. I've had the big three: B&G, Garmin and Raymarine, but it is hard to compare as I had the Raymarine equipment sold in 2005, B&G in 2015 and Garmin 2020. As a result, the Garmin is much faster and better GUI. I think any would work, but have two thoughts. An Ipad or equivalent is the most powerful navigation tool you can have on the boat at a fraction of the cost of marine MFD. The apps available, the processor speeds, etc. I wouldn't leave home without one. They are not water proof and have sun limitations, so I also would say you need an MFD. A very smart equipment guy once told me the only electronics you need to be truly reliable is your autopilot. It is cheap to have backup for everything else or you don't really need it.

I mentioned this before I think, but the ipad air 2 and ipad 4 mini are the only ipads with laminated screens and glare-resistive coated screens. The screens are more expensive to replace, but are better on the water. You do give up some screen performance to get the antiglare, but thats a tradeoff for a on the water screen.
https://9to5mac.com/2014/10/27/displ...i-3-shoot-out/

[CarinaPDX]

I like that KA4WJA makes my posts look short But really, read them. I agree with almost all that he said.

The problems with going to West to play with MFDs is 1) they don't have Furuno, and 2) while the UI can be experienced, what is needed is to know what features are supported. I have helped with installs for most of the brands out there, and I have found that they all come up short when compared to Furuno - with of course the exception of price. As for the features (I'm not talking about the main ones) you should download the manuals and look at the settings menu tree at the back (Furuno & RayMarine); don't have a menu tree then consider what is missing. I have installed a couple of B&G units and found that there were features I consider useful that just weren't there, and as others have noted there is just one support guy for the U.S. and he is overloaded. Of the consumer-grade units the RayMarine are the most feature-rich, and also fairly user-friendly. I like the Garmin UI but their proprietary charts are a no-go for me, and there have been enough posts about lack of support for older units to make me leery.

Why I like, and recommend, Furuno: It is robust, professional-grade gear, used by commercial fishermen and the military (USCG and Navy Seals both use my particular MFD - but slightly modded). FurunoUS service center is just up the river from me in Camas, WA, and they send their techs to their Seattle Boat Show booth every year. These same techs monitor the Furuno forum and provide great support that way. For the rare need for repair the turnaround is quick, and from here is a short drive. My decade-old unit (MFD8) is still supported with free, annually-updated NOAA charts (raster and vector), plus commercial Navionics and Cmap charts (plus sat photos, etc) - the same format as current products. Furuno is big on standards: when I bought mine it was NMEA 2000 certified, while others cheaped out and were "compatible". Mine came with the proper metal DeviceNet connector for N2K while the others offered proprietary plastic junk (IMHO). Looking in the manual the various settings are encyclopedic - the great majority are not going to be changed from defaults but there are times... The only downside to mine is that setting up the system/network is done in a separate mode from use, apparently a consequence of the WinCE roots (newer products are not WinCE AFAIK, but in any event it is not at all apparent). In the setup mode the source of various data can be chosen, which allows for multiple devices (e.g. GPS) to exist on the network - a problem for other MFDs. Back to standards: Furuno has ARPA, a standard, while RM and others offer MARPA (mini-ARPA - i.e. not standard). Furuno was slow to embrace solid-state radar, but their first offering went to the head of the class with all of the latest features, such as Doppler. I could go on and on - Furuno is just a cut above. Do the research and you will see. It just costs more.

As for the sensors it makes no sense to buy the RM, B&G, Garmin, Furuno depth and speed sensors: they are all made by Airmar so just buy the generic "smart" version with the DeviceNet connector, and install a proper DeviceNet N2K backbone. Maretron makes super quality N2K gear - I especially like their MultiPort boxes, which are much nicer than chaining tees together. I have a multiport box under the mast, for connection to depth, speed, and optionally wind, instruments; a second is in the center of the boat for the compass, autopilot, and optional USB connection for a laptop, and the third box is under the bridge deck for connection to displays, instruments, and optionally the engine.

I do not think it is necessary at all to buy products from the same vendor. N2K is largely standardized and inter-operable. If a device is using a proprietary PGN (data format) then don't buy it, or have a very good reason to buy it. Buy best-in-class, not one brand. With everything on N2K it is easy to add, or change out, anything including the MFD.

I also agree that having a separate GPS for the communication gear (VHF, SSB, modem) from the navigation gear (N2K) makes sense. Usually a GPS puck with NMEA 0183 output can feed all of the commo gear.

Greg (KF7BW)

[Suijin]

Whatever system you end up designing, make sure:

1) you build in redundancy in the nmea2000 backbone, and
2) all connections to the backbone are easily accessible, and
3) you learn a bit about troubleshooting nmea2000 networks

Unfortunately all it takes is one misbehaving device on the backbone to send the whole enchilada, or some mystifyingly random collection of other devices, in to chaos. Deep integration and the wonderful features that come with it are not without risk. Make sure your installer is an actual expert and appreciates your concern for reliability and redundancy.

[Delfin]

Good positive recommendations here, but for a negative, do not consider Simrad. Zero customer service, and when they come out with a new model, they throw away all service parts, even for units only a couple of years old. They could pay $100/month to store parts that may be needed, but no, they just have dumpsters brought in and toss the lot. Spoke with a former employee who saw it happen, and that is how he explained why I couldn't get a board for a 3 year old Radar display.

[NorthernMac]

I can’t comment to lots of it, as I didn’t go the simple path, nor better or worse lol

VHF/DHC/AIS in/out, I got a simrad RS-40B, it does everything you ask, can add wireless hand sets to it, I’d recommend.

[Capt Doug]

Avoid anything that says made in Japan

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Capt Doug

Avoid anything that says made in Japan

Cpt, why is that?


I have some Japanese equipment (e.g. my cameras) and it all works flawlessly.


Is this some kind of pun that I missed due to my poor command of English?


Cheers,
barnakiel