HF Radio -- Third Party Traffic

[Dockhead]

I had wrongly thought that my U.S. call sign was the reason I couldn't send emails over Winlink from the Baltic. Thanks to a couple of folks on here who understand it better than I do, I now know that it's because there are no treaties between the U.S. and any European countries regarding third party traffic, although third party traffic within certain limits is allowed in Europe.


So what to do? I bet I'm not the first U.S. amateur to want to be able to use Winlink in European waters.



I guess it doesn't work to use your whole "guest" call sign with /MM etc.


Maybe just sit the exam in a European country and get a second license?


Are there reciprocal temporary call signs anywhere?


How have others dealt with this?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I had wrongly thought that my U.S. call sign was the reason I couldn't send emails over Winlink from the Baltic. Thanks to a couple of folks on here who understand it better than I do, I now know that it's because there are no treaties between the U.S. and any European countries regarding third party traffic, although third party traffic within certain limits is allowed in Europe.


So what to do? I bet I'm not the first U.S. amateur to want to be able to use Winlink in European waters.



I guess it doesn't work to use your whole "guest" call sign with /MM etc.


Maybe just sit the exam in a European country and get a second license?


Are there reciprocal temporary call signs anywhere?


How have others dealt with this?

yes sadly the position for a US amateur is worse then for a EU amateur , as Winlink is US based and follows FCC guidelines , its enforces the FCC rule that if one station is US in the relay then third party traffic can only be forwarded to a quite small number of countries, on this side of the pond that's essentially the UK . ( see Third-Party Operating Agreements)

Its not clear if these rules are baked into Winlink , as in theory you can swop you US licence for a temporary CEPT license and hence the Winlink FCC rules don't apply , unless the receiver is in the US

The reciprocal arrangement is much less restrictive

When I had a boat based amateur rig , I used sailmail on commercial channels ( I have a commercial GOC cert ) because I wanted to send business emails etc , but sailmail has got expensive in recent years , around 2006 I switched to iridium

DAve
EI2GMB

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

yes sadly the position for a US amateur is worse then for a EU amateur , as Winlink is US based and follows FCC guidelines , its enforces the FCC rule that if one station is US in the relay then third party traffic can only be forwarded to a quite small number of countries, on this side of the pond that's essentially the UK . ( see Third-Party Operating Agreements)

Its not clear if these rules are baked into Winlink , as in theory you can swop you US licence for a temporary CEPT license and hence the Winlink FCC rules don't apply , unless the receiver is in the US

The reciprocal arrangement is much less restrictive

When I had a boat based amateur rig , I used sailmail on commercial channels ( I have a commercial GOC cert ) because I wanted to send business emails etc , but sailmail has got expensive in recent years , around 2006 I switched to iridium

DAve
EI2GMB

Thanks very much for that.

What is the process for "swopping" for a temporary CEPT? Maybe that would do it? I might simply sit for a European exam, but language can be a problem -- I'm only competent enough in German and Russian to sit for an exam, and both countries out of the way for me these days. I don't think they give the exams in English up here, and I don't know any of the Nordic languages well enough to sit an exam.

I am trying to resist going back to Iridium and I'm trying to find justification for that resistance. I like to keep my chops up on the radio (to be honest, I like playing with it, well that's what an amateur is, right?), and besides that I'm splitting my time over two boats now, and the other boat has a KVH.

You no longer have a rig on your boat? How about at home? I've never had any gear at home other than a handy talkie. I got the license in order to operate from the boat.

[dlj]

I've nothing to add but don't know how to follow this thread other than posting in it... Is there any other sevice besides Winlink that can be used for email in a similar fashion?

dj

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Thanks very much for that.

What is the process for "swopping" for a temporary CEPT? Maybe that would do it? I might simply sit for a European exam, but language can be a problem -- I'm only competent enough in German and Russian to sit for an exam, and both countries out of the way for me these days. I don't think they give the exams in English up here, and I don't know any of the Nordic languages well enough to sit an exam.

I am trying to resist going back to Iridium and I'm trying to find justification for that resistance. I like to keep my chops up on the radio (to be honest, I like playing with it, well that's what an amateur is, right?), and besides that I'm splitting my time over two boats now, and the other boat has a KVH.

You no longer have a rig on your boat? How about at home? I've never had any gear at home other than a handy talkie. I got the license in order to operate from the boat.

its complex and aimed at residents not fellows in boats, teh USA ratified CEPT T/R 61-01. which allows for US amateurs to operate for a limited time in the Europe on US call signs , however the US did not ratify CEPT T/R 61-02, which allows the swapping of licences for people claiming residency , its further complicated because some countries have slightly different national laws . The US was not prepared to recognise CEPT licences as swappable for US ones .

Its a mine field

Yes my rig is at home, I have an ICOM 7000, AT4 etc , its out of action at the moment due to a duff power supply unit and Im struggling to find the interest to fix it . I had intended to fit it to the Bav 36, but I cant find the remote cable anywhere for sale

The easiest way to get a CEPT license is to do the exam in the UK or ireland , simple stuff really, and hour or two exam, I swotted in the car on the way in !!!!

[dlj]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The easiest way to get a CEPT license is to do the exam in the UK or ireland , simple stuff really, and hour or two exam, I swotted in the car on the way in !!!!

If you do this, does Winlink now work as it's a US based service and apparently follows FCC rules somewhat "automatically" (at least that's what it seemed reading their rules)?

dj

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by dlj

If you do this, does Winlink now work as it's a US based service and apparently follows FCC rules somewhat "automatically" (at least that's what it seemed reading their rules)?

dj

In theory , if both the sender and receiver stations are not using US call signs, Winlink should allow it , but Im not sure as I only ever played with it for a bit and used sailmail in anger ( this is why I said I dont know if the FCC rules are baked into WinLink)

[goboatingnow]

If you are a non-US licensee, you should have no trouble sending and receiving to/from internet addresses if you connect to non-US licensed gateways.

cruiserfroum 2019 https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ed-221229.html

it seems clear that winlnk only enforces it for US callsigns/accounts

[Brian.D]

From what I understand, if one uses Gmail, there would be no way to determine destination unless the country code is appended to the address. I.e. Joe is using Gmail UK so his address would be Joe@gmail.com.uk. That might raise a red flag.

So, speaking out loud here, is there a way to test this by sending a friend overseas who uses Gmail, an email over WinLink?

I might try it and see what happens. Might get fined. LOL

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Brian.D

From what I understand, if one uses Gmail, there would be no way to determine destination unless the country code is appended to the address. I.e. Joe is using Gmail UK so his address would be Joe@gmail.com.uk. That might raise a red flag.

So, speaking out loud here, is there a way to test this by sending a friend overseas who uses Gmail, an email over WinLink?

I might try it and see what happens. Might get fined. LOL

I have a .com Gmail address , and Im in Ireland , believe you me, I can get geo fenced !!

winlink would simply do a MX record lookup and determine the IP of that email server , which would point to the originating email server , it equally could use reply address etc

While all of this can be spoofed, you average email sender isn't going to know how

Gmail messages contain sufficient Ip information ( directly or indirectly ) to determine the IP address of the sender, there's no real anonymity on the Internet

The only way would be to setup VPNs etc

[laeleasterling]

A browse through the ARRL and SAILMAIL pages reveals:


From the ARRL pages:
"CEPT Radio Amateur License Recommendation T/R 61-01allows US Amateur Extra and US Advanced class licensees to operate in European Union
countries and their dependencies listed below under CEPT T/R 61-01. The qualified US Amateur must carry a copy of the FCC CEPT Public Notice DA 16-1048 (dated September 16, 2016), your US passport and your official FCC-issued license (not a reference copy). Countries participating in CEPTRecommendation T/R 61-01:Albania, Austria, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark4, Estonia, Finland7, France5, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania,Luxembourg,Macedonia,Moldova,Monaco,Montenegro,Netherlands,Norway8,Poland,Portugal9,Romania,Russian
Federation, Serbia, Slovak Republic, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Ukraine, and the United Kingdom"


The public notice DA-16 PDF download link:
https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DA-16-1048A1.pdf


From the SAILMAIL website:
"The $275 membership fee covers membership for one year from the date that the membership fee is received. Memberships are only available for one year periods."


and


"Winlink: Sailmail members who have an appropriate class Ham license can also access the Winlink ham-radio network with the same software, click here for details. "


Using the AIRMAIL software and SAILMAIL instructions and subscription has worked for both WINLINK and SSB frequencies passing through Pacific ocean jurisdiction. My rig: ICOM M710; ICOM 120 Tunner; Backstay antenna.


CHEERS!

[goboatingnow]

OK , perhaps you dont realise what the issue is, CEPT T/R 61-01 merely allows a US amateur the right to use their US callsign in the CEPT signatory countries while temporarily visiting as tourists. This is to facilitate competitions etc

The problem is CEPT T/R 61-01 does not replace the US callsign with a local one , CEPT T/R 61-02 does allow this under certain situations , but the US did not ratify this

The issue is that Winlink enforcess FCC amateur rules with forbids, third party relay traffic where one of the stations is using a US callsign unless there is a third party agreement in place. Such agreements only exists for a handful of countries , Dockhead has already reported that these messages were blocked

what Dockhead needs is a European CEPT callsign , but the only current way to do that it seems is to sit a European ( or any CEPT reciprocal country ) amateur license exam

[Brian.D]

I sent two emails on Winlink Express tonight. One to a friend in Davis, Ca. and one to a friend in England. Neither were Gmail accounts. We will see what happens tomorrow.

This is from my home QTH, not the boat.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by dlj

I've nothing to add but don't know how to follow this thread other than posting in it...
dj

Under "thread tools" you have the option "subscribe to this Thread".

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

. . . The easiest way to get a CEPT license is to do the exam in the UK or ireland , simple stuff really, and hour or two exam, I swotted in the car on the way in !!!!

That's the ticket. Why didn't I think of that? And I'm on a UK flag boat and even have a UK address (marina in Cowes), so there is a good logical reason for me to want a UK license. Thanks!