I’m anti AIS. BUT......

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by jordanbigel

I agree there are "maritime crimes" committed in this example. But it sounds to me, from all the question marks, that you doubt that this really happens. Happens - as in plural - you bet it happens. Not monitoring radar? Check! No one on watch? Check! Just droning along until it ran into me? Check! That's exactly what happened, to me. The ship had radar (and ARPA), but no one was looking at them. (this was pre-AIS).

Don't believe it can't or won't or doesn't happen. It does, it did and it will again. AIS is another arrow in our quiver of tools to prevent it from happening. If you are out in the ocean and you have an AIS and don't have it on you are making a big mistake, just like if you had a radar, and was down below, and you didn't have the radar on. To be clear, this is what happened to me - I was down below briefly, not using my radar, the ship's crew was off doing lord knows what, but also not looking at their radar. Kaboom.

To summarize: Both radar and AIS only work if you turn them on.

Can you explain how AIS would have made a difference in your case?

[jordanbigel]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Can you explain how AIS would have made a difference in your case?

In my case I had no AIS. But I had radar, and it was not on. I sat at the nav desk for 10 minutes, I used the head, I went back to the nav desk - I definitely checked the wind angle and boat speed several times during that period, but I did not look at the radar, because it was not on.

The analogy is clear. If you have a device which can show you other ships bearing down on you, and you dont use it, you decrease your safety.

And I know you are not going to say "I never go below" because I am pretty sure you are a single-hander.

If the same situation repeated today, I would have the radar on. If I had an AIS (I do now) I would have it on. I use every possible tool available to make sure I can see them and they can see me.

[poiu]

@chotu

Get an AIS transponder. If you are worried about Big Brother tracking you then get an anonymous MMSI. Enter a fake one if you like. No one will know most likely. It’s an important safety device. You should have one. A Vesper 6000 for example. Cheap at 600 USD.

IMHO.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by jordanbigel

In my case I had no AIS. But I had radar, and it was not on. I sat at the nav desk for 10 minutes, I used the head, I went back to the nav desk - I definitely checked the wind angle and boat speed several times during that period, but I did not look at the radar, because it was not on.

The analogy is clear. If you have a device which can show you other ships bearing down on you, and you dont use it, you decrease your safety.

And I know you are not going to say "I never go below" because I am pretty sure you are a single-hander.

If the same situation repeated today, I would have the radar on. If I had an AIS (I do now) I would have it on. I use every possible tool available to make sure I can see them and they can see me.

So you think that having an AIS or switching on the radar would have made the officers on that ship keep proper watch? I think it would have made no difference. Apparently you also didn’t keep proper watch: recipe for disaster.

Rule #1 is that at minimum every 15 minutes an all around scan is done, either by eye or radar: never by AIS.

Single handing a 64 footer sounds like a compliment but alas, I don’t single hand it

[goboatingnow]

The analogy is clear. If you have a device which can show you other ships bearing down on you, and you dont use it, you decrease your safety.

The key is transmitting you location to others not necessarily receiving theirs. AIS only works when everything transmits , its useless if everyone just received !!!

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

So you think that having an AIS or switching on the radar would have made the officers on that ship keep proper watch? I think it would have made no difference. Apparently you also didn’t keep proper watch: recipe for disaster.

Rule #1 is that at minimum every 15 minutes an all around scan is done, either by eye or radar: never by AIS.

Single handing a 64 footer sounds like a compliment but alas, I don’t single hand it

I, for one, certainly think that AIS (or switching on the radar) could have made a difference in jordanbigel's case. He would have know that a ship was approaching and could have possibly avoided being hit by it. Even a receive only AIS could have accomplished that.

I don't think his use of AIS would have had any difference on the watch keeping of the ship's officers. That is besides the point. But it could have allowed him to avoid being run down and that is the objective, is it not?

There is little excuse for not keeping a proper watch, staying below for an extended time is asking for trouble, but adding the "watching" of AIS or radar definately adds to the ability of one to avoid that trouble.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I, for one, certainly think that AIS (or switching on the radar) could have made a difference in jordanbigel's case. He would have know that a ship was approaching and could have possibly avoided being hit by it. Even a receive only AIS could have accomplished that.

I think Jedi's point was that if no-one is in the cockpit to see the AIS, then AIS isn't going to help much either.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I think Jedi's point was that if no-one is in the cockpit to see the AIS, then AIS isn't going to help much either.

Exactly. Gadgets are not a replacement for proper watch keeping. A look at the radar every 15 minutes would have been enough.

Electronic aids are -aids-, not replacements. AIS has a pretty screen but does not reflect realtime reality, which is exactly what radar does provide. This is why eyeballs and radar are more important than AIS. Simplest example: that ship or fishing boat that has AIS switched off.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I think Jedi's point was that if no-one is in the cockpit to see the AIS, then AIS isn't going to help much either.

You don't have to look at most AIS units they issue audible alarms when certain conditions occur, distance, CPA and collision. Radar if configured properly will also produce audible warnings when targets enter guard zone.I still concur that a proper watch is paramount.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I think Jedi's point was that if no-one is in the cockpit to see the AIS, then AIS isn't going to help much either.

The assumption being made by yourself and Jedi is that the AIS or radar display is only available in the cockpit.

Boats are equipped differently. We have OpenCPN on a laptop at the nav station and our AIS displays there. If the laptop is off to reduce electricity usage the VHF will be set to monitor the AIS. Further, the AIS CPA and TCPA alarms (loud enough to wake the dead) can be heard throughout the vessel, including on deck. We have found that AIS accurately reflects reality to the extent that nearby vessels are transmitting on AIS. We have also observed radar displays which did not show every nearby target. I prefer AIS.

None of this does any good if one is closing with a moving or stationary object which is not transmitting, however, in jordanbigel's case it was a ship, not a wooden fishing boat, so presumably it could have made a difference.

In my opinion a 15 minute look around by the watch stander is not sufficient and 15 minutes below deck, plus a head call, is extremely risky. At 26 knots of closing speed (20 knot ship and 6 knot sailboat) 15 minutes results in 6.5 miles of seperation being lost.

Several years ago a sailboat was hit and sunk one dirty night by a ship near New Zealand. The woman on watch had gone below to heat water for a cup of tea. She reckoned she had been down for 10 minutes or less. She survived but her husband and child were lost.

Watch standing should be done on deck, Scanning the horizon should be frequent. To do otherwise is risky but when you are below your AIS or Radar are your eyes. They help. Keep them on.

[jordanbigel]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

So you think that having an AIS or switching on the radar would have made the officers on that ship keep proper watch? I think it would have made no difference. Apparently you also didn’t keep proper watch: recipe for disaster.

Rule #1 is that at minimum every 15 minutes an all around scan is done, either by eye or radar: never by AIS.

Single handing a 64 footer sounds like a compliment but alas, I don’t single hand it

My mistake, I must have confused something someone else said with you.

I agree with the 15 minute rule. I agreed with it 20 years ago. But people make mistakes, as I have demonstrated. Also, 15 minutes may be too infrequent, I'm not going to do the math, but a ship moving at a certain speed can be invisible to the naked eye and still run you down in less than 15 minutes. I believe in my case it was between 15 and 20 minutes.

I have no idea if having an AIS would have changed the outcome that day, but I believe it would have increased the odds of avoiding the collision. One more tool.

Obviously the key factor is not just that the crew of the ship was asleep at the wheel, I was obviously negligent myself, for not having the radar on at a minimum!

I guess my real point is that if you HAVE an AIS transponder, and you don't turn it on because of some supposed desire to remain anonymous, you are failing to take advantage of one of the tools which might reduce the probability of a disaster. That, to me, seems as foolish as my not using the radar that fateful day, which by the way, I chalk up to overconfidence.

As always, we each draw our own conclusions.

[jordanbigel]

The analogy is clear. If you have a device which can show you other ships bearing down on you, and you dont use it, you decrease your safety.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The key is transmitting you location to others not necessarily receiving theirs. AIS only works when everything transmits , its useless if everyone just received !!!

You are right of course. Poor choice of words on my part.

[jordanbigel]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I don't think his use of AIS would have had any difference on the watch keeping of the ship's officers. That is besides the point. But it could have allowed him to avoid being run down and that is the objective, is it not?

There is little excuse for not keeping a proper watch, staying below for an extended time is asking for trouble, but adding the "watching" of AIS or radar definately adds to the ability of one to avoid that trouble.

I agree with the former statement. They were not on the bridge, as was revealed in the inquiry which followed the incident (ultimately, the authorities apportioned blame 50/50 between the two parties). They testified that the watch officer noted my boat on radar 20 minutes before the collision and concluded (via ARPA) that the courses would not intersect. He also testified that he did not verify this condition again for the next 20 minutes.

My point was not to claim that AIS would have prevented this incident, my only point is that having a tool which can possibly, maybe, sometimes, prevent a collision and not flipping the ON switch is a decision which can lead to disaster.

This applies to both me and my negligent actions, and to the crew of the ship nd their negligent actions. Both of us failed to use the tools available to us. Whether that means they didn't look at their radar or check the horizon, or that I didn't turn on my radar or check the horizon, the analogy is clear and applies to the use of AIS - like anchor chain in the chain locker, it's not helping you any if you don't turn it on.

As to your last point, there is no excuse for not keeping a proper watch, and staying below for an extended period of time is asking for trouble. Some of us have to learn the hard way. We don't make that mistake any more. Luckily we were given a second chance.

[jordanbigel]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Exactly. Gadgets are not a replacement for proper watch keeping. A look at the radar every 15 minutes would have been enough.

Electronic aids are -aids-, not replacements. AIS has a pretty screen but does not reflect realtime reality, which is exactly what radar does provide. This is why eyeballs and radar are more important than AIS. Simplest example: that ship or fishing boat that has AIS switched off.

Agree 100%. Didn't mean to give any other impression. AIS is just one more tool.

[jordanbigel]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Several years ago a sailboat was hit and sunk one dirty night by a ship near New Zealand. The woman on watch had gone below to heat water for a cup of tea. She reckoned she had been down for 10 minutes or less. She survived but her husband and child were lost.

That would be the Melinda Lee. The incident occurred in 1995 (several years ago). That happened off Cape Brett, about 60 miles North of where I was hit, in 2001.

The funny thing was (maybe not funny) we were familiar with the story of the Melinda Lee in 2001. At the time it was talked about a lot in the sailing press and on the internet of the day (on Usenet alt.sailing I think). But you always think "that could never happen to me". As they say, there but for the grace of Poseidon.

This is where I put in a plug for the toughest GRP sailboat ever built, the Shannon 50 built in 1983. Any lesser boat, I believe, would have sunk that day. The Shannon just shrugged it off with a smile.

Lastly, in the interest of full disclosure, since I started this for god knows what reason, I should offer this link from a web site frozen in time. December 2001

I reveal all this not for glory or notoriety, or because I believe I am some wise old sage of the sea (compared to some of you I am a piker) but I have learned a few things in 21 years of cruising and living aboard, and one of them is that if you don't use every tool at your disposal (including eyeballs) then you could be in for a big disappointment.

PS. Apologies to the OP for monopolizing this post. I will try to stay out of the conversation after this, I have said everything I could possibly say on this topic...