I’m anti AIS. BUT......

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by wingssail

The assumption being made by yourself and Jedi is that the AIS or radar display is only available in the cockpit.

Boats are equipped differently. We have OpenCPN on a laptop at the nav station and our AIS displays there. If the laptop is off to reduce electricity usage the VHF will be set to monitor the AIS. Further, the AIS CPA and TCPA alarms (loud enough to wake the dead) can be heard throughout the vessel, including on deck. We have found that AIS accurately reflects reality to the extent that nearby vessels are transmitting on AIS. We have also observed radar displays which did not show every nearby target. I prefer AIS.

None of this does any good if one is closing with a moving or stationary object which is not transmitting, however, in jordanbigel's case it was a ship, not a wooden fishing boat, so presumably it could have made a difference.

In my opinion a 15 minute look around by the watch stander is not sufficient and 15 minutes below deck, plus a head call, is extremely risky. At 26 knots of closing speed (20 knot ship and 6 knot sailboat) 15 minutes results in 6.5 miles of seperation being lost.

Several years ago a sailboat was hit and sunk one dirty night by a ship near New Zealand. The woman on watch had gone below to heat water for a cup of tea. She reckoned she had been down for 10 minutes or less. She survived but her husband and child were lost.

Watch standing should be done on deck, Scanning the horizon should be frequent. To do otherwise is risky but when you are below your AIS or Radar are your eyes. They help. Keep them on.

No, I didn’t make that assumption. The 15 minute rule is for eyeball, offshore, good weather conditions. When the weather deteriorates, the 15 minute rule can still be followed when radar is used the counter the reduced visibility. Note that AIS can -not- be used for that because not every collision danger has AIS transmitting or no AIS at all.

Alarms are only for last resort damage control; they have no value for proper watch keeping protocols. You should already be aware of that danger by proper watch keeping long before the alarm goes off.

Targets that are too fast for the 15 minute rule do exist but it is on them to put extra measures in place. They have a strobe light and also give regular announcements on VHF radio. If you have radar you can see them coming long before even that 15 minute period.

If visibility is poor and no radar is available, then continuous watch is required so that 15 minute window is off the table then.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

In my mind, the ability for someone to grab an AIS location whenever the transmitter is in range of a shore side receiver that's uploading to Marinetraffic, etc. is not as big a deal as it sounds. Outside of people I actually know, most people don't have a correlation between my boat name and who I am in real life or anything else important. So while the info is there, it's not like they can do all that much with it.

You would feel differently about that in Asia

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

You would feel differently about that in Asia

Could you expand upon that, please?

Jim

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Alarms are only for last resort damage control; they have no value for proper watch keeping protocols. You should already be aware of that danger by proper watch keeping long before the alarm goes off.

This is lunacy. In my experience the AIS picks up dangerous targets WAY before they appears on radar or visual. It gives me the situational awareness I need to make leisurely decisions based on COLREGS before COLREGS even comes into play. In the open ocean I set the alarm parameters for a CPA of less than 2 miles with a TCPA of less than 40 minutes.

The alarm is not damage control, it lets me sleep, knowing that if whoever is on watch does NOT follow protocol, I will be notified well before I am in extremis.

A couple of examples--In the collision of the USS Fitzgerald, what woke the captain was the bow of a containership penetrating his quarters. If he had insisted on an AIS alarm, he would still be the captain.

I was about 80 miles off the East Coast US under sail in a 72 ft boat when the crew wakes me and says we are about to be hit from behind by a cruise ship. Our boat had AIS, but the race navigator jealously guarded information, and when I came up we were within 3 minutes of a collision and had to do a crash gybe in 20 knots. If the boat had an AIS alarm, I would have learned of the collision potential at least a half hour ahead of time, and would have had a pithy discussion of the applicable COLREGS on VHF channel 16 with the bridge of the cruise ship.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

This is lunacy. In my experience the AIS picks up dangerous targets WAY before they appears on radar or visual. It gives me the situational awareness I need to make leisurely decisions based on COLREGS before COLREGS even comes into play. In the open ocean I set the alarm parameters for a CPA of less than 2 miles with a TCPA of less than 40 minutes.

The alarm is not damage control, it lets me sleep, knowing that if whoever is on watch does NOT follow protocol, I will be notified well before I am in extremis.

A couple of examples--In the collision of the USS Fitzgerald, what woke the captain was the bow of a containership penetrating his quarters. If he had insisted on an AIS alarm, he would still be the captain.

I was about 80 miles off the East Coast US under sail in a 72 ft boat when the crew wakes me and says we are about to be hit from behind by a cruise ship. Our boat had AIS, but the race navigator jealously guarded information, and when I came up we were within 3 minutes of a collision and had to do a crash gybe in 20 knots. If the boat had an AIS alarm, I would have learned of the collision potential at least a half hour ahead of time, and would have had a pithy discussion of the applicable COLREGS on VHF channel 16 with the bridge of the cruise ship.

Sorry but imho it is your watch keeping that is lunacy. You count on AIS alarms while there are many vessels out there that do not have AIS or do not transmit on AIS. The safety of “leisurely watch keeping” you feel is false because your AIS only tracks a subset of possible collision targets out there.

You’re not supposed to go sleep at night, a watch must be kept at all times.

[smj]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

This is lunacy. In my experience the AIS picks up dangerous targets WAY before they appears on radar or visual. It gives me the situational awareness I need to make leisurely decisions based on COLREGS before COLREGS even comes into play. In the open ocean I set the alarm parameters for a CPA of less than 2 miles with a TCPA of less than 40 minutes.



The alarm is not damage control, it lets me sleep, knowing that if whoever is on watch does NOT follow protocol, I will be notified well before I am in extremis.



A couple of examples--In the collision of the USS Fitzgerald, what woke the captain was the bow of a containership penetrating his quarters. If he had insisted on an AIS alarm, he would still be the captain.



I was about 80 miles off the East Coast US under sail in a 72 ft boat when the crew wakes me and says we are about to be hit from behind by a cruise ship. Our boat had AIS, but the race navigator jealously guarded information, and when I came up we were within 3 minutes of a collision and had to do a crash gybe in 20 knots. If the boat had an AIS alarm, I would have learned of the collision potential at least a half hour ahead of time, and would have had a pithy discussion of the applicable COLREGS on VHF channel 16 with the bridge of the cruise ship.

So you had the lights of New York City approaching you from behind and were 3 minutes from getting run over by those same lights? Start of by hiring crew that aren’t legally blind and don’t rely on electronics to save your ass. Pathetic seamanship?

[poiu]

Originally Posted by jordanbigel

I guess my real point is that if you HAVE an AIS transponder, and you don't turn it on because of some supposed desire to remain anonymous, you are failing to take advantage of one of the tools which might reduce the probability of a disaster. …..

Actually you are doing more than that, you are acting in breach of the Colregs, which require that you use all equipment available to you. I.e. that you turn on and use the AIS and the radar and the Mk1 eyeball.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

You count on AIS alarms while there are many vessels out there that do not have AIS or do not transmit on AIS. The safety of “leisurely watch keeping” you feel is false because your AIS only tracks a subset of possible collision targets out there.

Quite so. Cruising the US east coast there are lots and lots of commercial and sport fishing boats that do not transmit AIS. Some of the commercial fishing boats are steel and can be 80-100'. That's more than enough to ruin your day if you run into one of them (or vice versa).

You will also see a few sport fishing boats that can run at 35-45 kts that also don't transmit AIS. If you're also making good speed that could put them from over the horizon to on your bow in less than 15 minutes.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

No, I didn’t make that assumption.

Well Bud, that is what was said: "Jedi's point was that if no-one is in the cockpit to see the AIS, then AIS isn't going to help much either." Maybe you'll disagree that was what you meant. The assumption I was referring to was that AIS couldn't help you when you're below because you can only see it in the cockpit. Bad assumption, at least on my boat.

Nevermind. Say you've looked around, thought you saw a clear horizon, and then you pop down below for some reason and the AIS alarm sounds. You glance at the chart plotter and you see a vessel which will be within 2 miles in the next 20 minutes you look on deck, still can't see it, it's 10 miles away. OK, you quickly finish your below deck business and go on deck to see what needs to be done. How is that NOT helpful?

The 15 minute rule is for eyeball, offshore, good weather conditions. When the weather deteriorates, the 15 minute rule can still be followed when radar is used the counter the reduced visibility. Note that AIS can -not- be used for that because not every collision danger has AIS transmitting or no AIS at all.

Alarms are only for last resort damage control; they have no value for proper watch keeping protocols. You should already be aware of that danger by proper watch keeping long before the alarm goes off.

Sorry, Alarms are not "last resort" they are "first warning". They alert a sleepy crew that hasn't seen a ship for two days that there is something out there. Alarms have huge value in that they can alert you to situations before they develop into crisis.

Targets that are too fast for the 15 minute rule do exist but it is on them to put extra measures in place.

20 knot vessels are common, add your 6-10 knot speed and you can have closing over 30 knots. That is 5 miles in 10 minutes. You need to decide fast. And your survival is on you, not them, regardless of Colregs right or wrong.

They have a strobe light and also give regular announcements on VHF radio. If you have radar you can see them coming long before even that 15 minute period.BS

If visibility is poor and no radar is available, then continuous watch is required so that 15 minute window is off the table then.

I've got to say, Bud, you attitude is somewhat arrogant. You call AIS a gadget with a "pretty screen" and only radar is worth anything. You can have that opinion but why discount everyone else's' opinion? Are you the only sailor on this forum?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by smj

So you had the lights of New York City approaching you from behind and were 3 minutes from getting run over by those same lights? Start of by hiring crew that aren’t legally blind and don’t rely on electronics to save your ass. Pathetic seamanship?

Ummm... let's see... the watchkeeper, who isn't blind at all does see the overtaking cruise ship. Says to self "hmmm, I'm sailing and he is overtaking from astern so I am the stand on vessel and must maintain course and speed and he will avoid me. In time it appears that he ain't gonna do so and a rule 17 situation is developing, so, following standing orders he calls the skipper. , Skipper makes the necessary course change and tragedy is avoided, Crew could have called earlier OR an AIS alarm would have (in this case) have been a good help by not dragging its feet in waking the skipper.

Not well executed perhaps, but I see no horrible seamanship on the skip's part., He had a watckeeper on duty, said watchkeeper was aware of the oncoming
ship and waited a bit too long to exercise rule 17 or to call the skipper to do so. The really bad seamanship was on the part of the cruise ship!

Jim

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Sorry but imho it is your watch keeping that is lunacy. You count on AIS alarms while there are many vessels out there that do not have AIS or do not transmit on AIS. The safety of “leisurely watch keeping” you feel is false because your AIS only tracks a subset of possible collision targets out there.

You’re not supposed to go sleep at night, a watch must be kept at all times.

I don't know how you got the idea that there is no watch being kept. Your point is am supposed to stay up 24/7 to make sure that the watchkeepers are vigilant?

I see more and more smaller vessels with AIS in the first world. I just came by San Pedro on a winter's night in pissing rain and 25 knots of wind. I saw at least a dozen targets I had to deal with, from anchored ships, ships spinning in slow circles, ships actually going somewhere, ships in designated shipping lanes, fast ferries, tugs with tows and the Catalina supply boat. Visibility was less than a mile, and radar was marginal with the sea and rain clutter. Not one radar target didn't have an AIS transponder.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

A couple of examples--In the collision of the USS Fitzgerald, what woke the captain was the bow of a containership penetrating his quarters. If he had insisted on an AIS alarm, he would still be the captain.

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I don't know how you got the idea that there is no watch being kept. Your point is am supposed to stay up 24/7 to make sure that the watchkeepers are vigilant?

In the region the Fitz was sailing, the AIS alarm would have been going off near continuously. While you may be right that if the Capt had an alarm in his cabin, the collision may have been averted, it would presuppose that he would have had to submit to staying up 24/7 ensuring his watchkeepers were vigilant. I take it you agree that that is an unreasonable expectation of the Capt?

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I was about 80 miles off the East Coast US under sail in a 72 ft boat when the crew wakes me and says we are about to be hit from behind by a cruise ship. Our boat had AIS, but the race navigator jealously guarded information, and when I came up we were within 3 minutes of a collision and had to do a crash gybe in 20 knots. If the boat had an AIS alarm, I would have learned of the collision potential at least a half hour ahead of time, and would have had a pithy discussion of the applicable COLREGS on VHF channel 16 with the bridge of the cruise ship.

I'm curious why the crew had not had a pithy discussion on VHF with the cruise ship? Sounded five short? Flashed light? Lit up sails? Did they do anything, or were they allowed to?

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

In the region the Fitz was sailing, the AIS alarm would have been going off near continuously. While you may be right that if the Capt had an alarm in his cabin, the collision may have been averted, it would presuppose that he would have had to submit to staying up 24/7 ensuring his watchkeepers were vigilant. I take it you agree that that is an unreasonable expectation of the Capt?



I'm curious why the crew had not had a pithy discussion on VHF with the cruise ship? Sounded five short? Flashed light? Lit up sails? Did they do anything, or were they allowed to?

First, in the Fitz case, the OOD was not trained, repeatedly violated her standing orders, lost situational awareness, froze, and did not sound a collision alarm. The captain got fired but she didn't.

While I was staying in Italy, I became good friends with the captain of a Turkish ship that made repeated calls in my port. I remember talking to him a couple of years later, and asked him how thing were going. He said not well, he had a new ship, and the 3rd mate was incompetent. The captain was not getting enough sleep because he had to be on the bridge at all times the 3rd was on watch.

While there was traffic in the Fitz case, it was certainly no worse than I experienced going past San Pedro. In areas like that I turn off audible alarms because I am looking at the AIS display at least every 2-4 minutes while someone else is standing lookout in the cockpit and executing my course changes. The traffic does not last 24/7, and you catch up on your sleep in the less congested areas. Once I got inside the shipping lanes in Santa Monica Bay, I got a couple of hours of good sack time until we got to Channel Islands harbor at 0300.

In the case of the cruise ship, the 2 crew on watch violated my specific instructions to call me if they had any questions. Instead they consulted the navigator, who delayed calling me or changing course until the last minute. The navigator was not my crew choice, he was put on the boat by the owner.

If you want to get the attention of a ship, the VHF is best if you have its name from the AIS. 5 blasts from your pitiful horn is useless. A flare shot at the bridge would probably work for a cruise ship, but smaller vessels may have no one looking out the windows. The container ship in the Fitz did not have a ship's name because the Fitz AIS transponder was turned off "for security reasons" . The container ship did not call on the VHF, but flashed their lights to no avail. The Navy now as a revised AIS policy.

If you call on the VHF, remember that licensed ship bridge officers are required to know navigational English, just like airline pilots. A call in the middle of the night often goes to "standby a minute" while they wake the captain or someone who speaks better English than the watch officer. If you try to call with "ship 2 miles on my starboard bow", or "ship at Lat Long", prepared to be ignored. It goes both ways. I have been called by name by an aircraft carrier coming into Norfolk, who wanted me to know that he was on a collision course now, but would be turning and slowing before he hit me.

That is the beauty of AIS.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

...If you try to call with "ship 2 miles on my starboard bow", or "ship at Lat Long", prepared to be ignored ...

Before AIS we had a few, rare but a few, occasions to hail ships. Even more rarely did they answer. Even more rarely was the ship which answered the one which I was hailing.

Sometimes a ship 25 miles away, looking at a completely different situation and sailboat, would come back with total nonsense: "yes sailboat, I am turning right to avoid you". Meanwhile the ship bearing down on me wasn't deviating from his course at all.

If you call, "Ship off my starboard bow"... which way should that watch stander look to see you?

If you call, "ship at lat long" how do you know that the coordinates he sees on his GPS agrees with the coordinates you just described?

When they get a call like that they just think you're stupid (true). No wonder they often fail to answer.

If you hail, "Northbound tanker at approx [lat long], this is the southbound sailboat 2 miles on your port bow bearing 305 degrees..." they may answer.

But if you call them by name they WILL answer. Every time. And when you give your boat name they will look at their AIS screen and see exactly what boat/target is hailing them.

I've been sailing for 53 years, cruising offshore for 35 years. From my perspective only GPS is more valuable than AIS. Like GPS, it has transformed cruising.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Before AIS we had a few, rare but a few, occasions to hail ships. Even more rarely did they answer. Even more rarely was the ship which answered the one which I was hailing.



Sometimes a ship 25 miles away, looking at a completely different situation and sailboat, would come back with total nonsense: "yes sailboat, I am turning right to avoid you". Meanwhile the ship bearing down on me wasn't deviating from his course at all.



If you call, "Ship off my starboard bow"... which way should that watch stander look to see you?



If you call, "ship at lat long" how do you know that the coordinates he sees on his GPS agrees with the coordinates you just described?



When they get a call like that they just think you're stupid (true). No wonder they often fail to answer.



If you hail, "Northbound tanker at approx [lat long], this is the southbound sailboat 2 miles on your port bow bearing 305 degrees..." they may answer.



But if you call them by name they WILL answer. Every time. And when you give your boat name they will look at their AIS screen and see exactly what boat/target is hailing them.



I've been sailing for 53 years, cruising offshore for 35 years. From my perspective only GPS is more valuable than AIS. Like GPS, it has transformed cruising.

I agree 9 times out of 10 hailing a ship without the name results in no answer. These days I generate a dsc call because I have the MMSI from the ais. That’s always gets an answer.