Information Overload - inverter info please

[Cap Morgan]

Thanks for your assistance in advance. Can someone point me to a link on this site that explains how DC to AC inverters work on Sailboats, costs etc. I searched the site but am often faced with too much information when I search.
Here’s what I’m trying to accomplish. Obviously, every Cruiser has an AC electrical system and a DC system. I’m working on upgrading my DC system with the addition of new Solar panels while repairing my Wind generator. I’m shooting for approximately 540 volts DC combined between solar and wind. On the other side of the coin I’ve got things like an air conditioning system that I think only works when I’m plugged in at the dock ( possibly wrong on this) and outlets that like wise work only when I’m on shore power. I’m not ever planning to use slips for my boat in Miami ($1750 per month for my boat at Dinner Key Coconut Grove). Hence, Id like to be able to use my AC electrical system in the boat once in awhile on my mooring and at sea to run things like a vacuum cleaner and other appliances that work off the AC outlets when I need to. I’m simply seeking a link to posts that I know must exist on this site regarding this topic. Thanks again!

[smac999]

Yes you need to add an inverter to make the plugs work. If you want to run Aplicances you will want 2000-3000w inverter.

Running the air con is not really Doable. Not cheaply anyways.

I would consider an inverter / charger. Unless you are traveling world wide to different power country’s. then you probably want to separate then. What do you currently have for a battery charger

The victrons inverters are good.

[Brian.D]

Inverters can be tricky. They have Pure Sine Wave (PSW) inverters and Modified Sine Wave (MSW) inverters. PSW inverters are more expensive, but will be easy on your electronics. PSW inverters are like your house current. MSW can damage some of your gear. Not everything takes kindly to a MSW inverter. Basically a MSW inverter produces square waves.

You might want to read up on inverters for RVs. Not much difference between a cruising boat and a RV except we are on the water, not land. So maybe the outer casing of the inverter has better "at sea" life protection.

As for power requirements, these guys here can help you better with that. Or possibly reading RV information on power requirements.

Good luck, and all this is JMHO.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Cap Morgan

Thanks for your assistance in advance. Can someone point me to a link on this site that explains how DC to AC inverters work on Sailboats, costs etc. I searched the site but am often faced with too much information when I search.
Here’s what I’m trying to accomplish. Obviously, every Cruiser has an AC electrical system and a DC system. I’m working on upgrading my DC system with the addition of new Solar panels while repairing my Wind generator. I’m shooting for approximately 540 volts DC combined between solar and wind. On the other side of the coin I’ve got things like an air conditioning system that I think only works when I’m plugged in at the dock ( possibly wrong on this) and outlets that like wise work only when I’m on shore power. I’m not ever planning to use slips for my boat in Miami ($1750 per month for my boat at Dinner Key Coconut Grove). Hence, Id like to be able to use my AC electrical system in the boat once in awhile on my mooring and at sea to run things like a vacuum cleaner and other appliances that work off the AC outlets when I need to. I’m simply seeking a link to posts that I know must exist on this site regarding this topic. Thanks again!

Hard to know which part you don't understand, but... finding links usually works better with the Advanced Search tool.

The short version is that an inverter will use (one of) your battery bank(s) to create AC (alternating current) from DC.

You can wire AC from the inverter directly to the load (appliance, outlet, etc.) or you can wire AC to your electrical distribution panel and thus energize several lad possibilities simultaneously via individual breakers.

Inverter sizing is where you decide how many loads you want to serve, and what amount of amperage you need to provide.

A transfer switch is how you select shore power/genset power of AC from an inverter. Several (many? most?) inverters these days have an automatic internal transfer switch -- which begins providing AC immediately when it senses no AC from those other sources.

As @smac999 said, running AC (aircon) from an inverter is generally not in the cards and/or very expensive. (Do you have generator?) Otherwise, most other AC (current) loads can be served by an inverter.

Are you thinking to install an inverter yourself?

-Chris

[goboatingnow]

There are two approaches to inverter AC wiring

One is a transfer switch to allow the inverter power up all onboard Ac devices. Several of these don’t make sense when the inverter is available.

The other is to run a few dedicated outlets to the invertor. That way you don’t need transfer switches and there is less chance of power up something unsuitable

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by Cap Morgan

I’m shooting for approximately 540 volts DC combined between solar and wind.

Assuming you don't mean volts here, what do you mean?

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

There are two approaches to inverter AC wiring

One is a transfer switch to allow the inverter power up all onboard Ac devices. Several of these don’t make sense when the inverter is available.

Or some.

It's easy enough to do, inside the panel...

For OP: aircon, water heater, maybe a resistance cooktop and/or standard electric oven, etc. are some of the "don't make sense" appliances.

-Chris

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

There are two approaches to inverter AC wiring

One is a transfer switch to allow the inverter power up all onboard Ac devices. Several of these don’t make sense when the inverter is available.

The other is to run a few dedicated outlets to the invertor. That way you don’t need transfer switches and there is less chance of power up something unsuitable

There's also an in-between approach, which I've taken. My inverter has a transfer switch. I have 2 AC legs (L1 and L2). L2 is entirely non-inverter circuits (mostly HVAC). L1 is a mix of inverter and non-inverter stuff. So the inverter input comes from the L1 main, and L1 is sub-paneled. A few circuits come directly from the L1 main (stuff like the start battery charger and water heater). Others (like outlets) come through the inverter transfer switch (which we've marked as the L1/Inverter sub-panel).

Functionally, anything I may want to power from the inverter is on the sub-panel, anything I never want to power from the inverter is fed directly from either the L1 or L2 main, so it only gets power when we're plugged in to shore power or have the generator running. We keep the inverter on 24/7, so the circuits on the L1/Inverter sub-panel auto transfer to inverter power pretty much seamlessly (just a slight blink) when disconnecting shore power or shutting down the generator. So far, it's been a very effective setup and requires no manual fiddling in normal use.

An example picture of my panel (with labels) is below. The L1 and L2 main breakers are out of the picture (they're up higher on the panel).

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by ranger58sb

Or some.

It's easy enough to do, inside the panel...

For OP: aircon, water heater, maybe a resistance cooktop and/or standard electric oven, etc. are some of the "don't make sense" appliances.

-Chris

Yes if you happy to rewire your AC panel , many are not.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Yes if you happy to rewire your AC panel , many are not.

Depending on how your AC panel is designed and bussed internally, doing a sub-panel like I did is not necessarily hard. In my case, it was pretty simple. Add the inverter input to the output side of the L1 main, then move the bus for one of the groups of 4 breakers from the L1 main to the inverter output. Then I split the bus in half for another group of 4, leaving half on the L2 main like it was and connecting the newly split off bus to the inverter output. And then added a new bus for the inverter neutrals, moving the neutral wires for the appropriate circuits onto it. Total time fussing around inside the panel was under 2 hours.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Depending on how your AC panel is designed and bussed internally, doing a sub-panel like I did is not necessarily hard. In my case, it was pretty simple. Add the inverter input to the output side of the L1 main, then move the bus for one of the groups of 4 breakers from the L1 main to the inverter output. Then I split the bus in half for another group of 4, leaving half on the L2 main like it was and connecting the newly split off bus to the inverter output. And then added a new bus for the inverter neutrals, moving the neutral wires for the appropriate circuits onto it. Total time fussing around inside the panel was under 2 hours.

In mine it would require new bus bars in a sealed enclosure that has little additional room.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

In mine it would require new bus bars in a sealed enclosure that has little additional room.

Definitely not as easy on some panels as others. Finding room for a 3rd neutral bus bar in the box behind my panel was a little tight, but fortunately the breakers are bussed with metal bars across the breaker inputs (rather than separate bus bars with wires to each breaker). So I got lucky and could split up the breaker groups just by moving and adding a couple pieces of wire, no extra hardware needed.

[KompetentKrew]

Originally Posted by Cap Morgan

I’m shooting for approximately 540 volts DC combined between solar and wind.

As @chris95040 says, this doesn't make sense.

You need to start thinking in watts, which is volts x amps.

If something draws 5A at 110v then it's going to draw about 50A from your 12v system

It is the number of amps running down a cable, not watts or volts, that determines how thick it needs to be.

You need to wrap your head around the implications of this. How many watts is your air-conditioner? How many amps is that at 12v? How many amp hours are in your 12v batteries?

IMO all other details are a distraction at this stage.

[Brian.D]

Be careful on terminology. 'L1' and 'L2' are terms used with 3-Phase power systems and not lines from an inverter or main power on a boat. Unless your boat has 3-phase power, I would recommend calling them what they are, inverter power or AC mains power.

JMHO

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by chris95040

Assuming you don't mean volts here, what do you mean?

Yeah, this. I fear the OP doesn't yet grasp many of the basics.

Shortest answer: list out all the AC things you would like to be able to run while without shorepower, and either consult a marine electrician, or take it to a decent marine electronics store and ask for a recommendation.

The OP needs to either seek out an expert, or invest whatever time is required to understand boat electrical systems.