LED bulb in old mast top nav light

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Based on much of what's been said, & the provided info. Why not use an LED for the anchor light, & a conventional bulb for your tri-color? And yes, my internal notification system is telling me that I likely missed something via that statement. The question is, what?

Well most people are trying to save the significant amp usage of a filament bulb in a tri-color overnight. The RFI issue affects VHF reception (which includes AIS). I want good reception at anchor too. It is a matter of finding a bulb that gives off little RFI. While Kas keeps saying that if it is marine it won't have RFI. But that is just wrong. AS I've norted before, some of the high-end, certified, masthead LED light fixtures have had significant RFI -- while others are fine.

[kas_1611]

Actually I said "if it is a properly designed, marine, LED it will not have any RF interference." The critical part of that statement is "properly designed".

The marine bit is purely for the resilience to the corrosive environment that we have to deal with. An automotive LED that gives no RF interference (of which I am sure there must be) would work but not last as long as a marine unit as it will not be built to survive the harsh salt water environment.

In general cheap units will not be RF controlled but that does not mean expensive units will be. It sounds that the marine certification is purely that it is salt water resistant and has nothing to do with RF interference.

Keiron

[Bobcat]

"Perhaps what needs to be done is not dismiss LEDs but redesign the filters and ensure they are truly fit for purpose regardless of light source."

I don't think this is possible, especially as even white LEDs tend to have a blue bias and that would no doubt affect what is seen through the lens. Also colour recognition is very subjective. In the extreme we have colour blindness but also between the sexes and even with what seems to be 'blindingly' obvious to some is not to others - check out some of these trick colours which some see a one colour and others as a totally different colour!

Do you have a partner of the opposite sex? If so, then see if you can agree on every hue and colour. Unlikely!

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

Actually I said "if it is a properly designed, marine, LED it will not have any RF interference." The critical part of that statement is "properly designed".

The marine bit is purely for the resilience to the corrosive environment that we have to deal with. An automotive LED that gives no RF interference (of which I am sure there must be) would work but not last as long as a marine unit as it will not be built to survive the harsh salt water environment.

In general cheap units will not be RF controlled but that does not mean expensive units will be. It sounds that the marine certification is purely that it is salt water resistant and has nothing to do with RF interference.

Keiron

That's about as useful a statement as a system designed not to have a problem doesn't have the problem. In practice marine designed is not sufficient for a consumer to avoid RFI. And paying for a high-end light is also not sufficient. I suspect you haven't had the experience of having multiple LED nav lights produce excessive RFI after install -- noting that multiple mast head installs can be less fun.

[kas_1611]

Originally Posted by Paul L

That's about as useful a statement as a system designed not to have a problem doesn't have the problem. In practice marine designed is not sufficient for a consumer to avoid RFI. And paying for a high-end light is also not sufficient. I suspect you haven't had the experience of having multiple LED nav lights produce excessive RFI after install -- noting that multiple mast head installs can be less fun.

Correct I haven't as the units I purchased from Boatlamps were designed not to produce any RF interference and I can say, hand on heart, that they work exactly as designed.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

Correct I haven't as the units I purchased from Boatlamps were designed not to produce any RF interference and I can say, hand on heart, that they work exactly as designed.

Having an engineering background I'm always happy to go with a random success

[kas_1611]

Originally Posted by Bobcat

"Perhaps what needs to be done is not dismiss LEDs but redesign the filters and ensure they are truly fit for purpose regardless of light source."

I don't think this is possible, especially as even white LEDs tend to have a blue bias and that would no doubt affect what is seen through the lens. Also colour recognition is very subjective. In the extreme we have colour blindness but also between the sexes and even with what seems to be 'blindingly' obvious to some is not to others - check out some of these trick colours which some see a one colour and others as a totally different colour!

Do you have a partner of the opposite sex? If so, then see if you can agree on every hue and colour. Unlikely!

If LEDs have a blue tinge then incandescent have a yellowish tinge. This would produce a problem if the filter is designed with this yellowish tinge in mind so that it corrects for it. If a light with a blue tinge is placed behind the filter then to colour will be different. That is not the LED at fault but the filter.

As I mentioned previously my antique brass starboard lamp (for decorative purpose only) has a blue filter as the light source was originally an oil lamp with a very yellow hue. Yellow plus blue = green.

We can not account for individual visual differences in colour determination but a standard could be put in place using calibrated photospectrometry to ensure that the transmitted light is within a specified wavelength. As LEDs are becoming more and more popular it is time to move forward and ensure our navigation lamps are not stuck in the 19th century and oil lamps.

And yes my wife does determine colours slightly differently but then she isn't colour blind.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

We can not account for individual visual differences in colour determination but a standard could be put in place using calibrated photospectrometry to ensure that the transmitted light is within a specified wavelength. As LEDs are becoming more and more popular it is time to move forward and ensure our navigation lamps are not stuck in the 19th century and oil lamps. wife does determine colours slightly differently but then she isn't colour blind.

There is a standard - it's in COLREGS. And it is independent of light source - it applies equally to oil lamps and LEDS since it specifies the colour of the output of the navigation light, not of the light source behind the filter.

ANNEX I:
7. Colour specification of lights
. The chromaticity of all navigation lights shall conform to the following standards, which lie within the boundaries of the area of the diagram specified for each colour by the International Commission on Illumination (CIE).

The boundaries of the area for each colour are given by indicating the corner co-ordinates, which are
as follows:
...

(ii) Green
x 0.028 0.009 0.300 0.203
y 0.385 0.723 0.511 0.356
...

[Bob666]

Guys, anybody got a clue WHAT bulb to buy from boat lamp for my Norlin 37, please?

Posted some pics earlier. Do not know what lantern I got currently. And if they the no I got a small or a large vessel.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by StuM

There is a standard - it's in COLREGS. And it is independent of light source - it applies equally to oil lamps and LEDS since it specifies the colour of the output of the navigation light, not of the light source behind the filter.

ANNEX I:
7. Colour specification of lights
. The chromaticity of all navigation lights shall conform to the following standards, which lie within the boundaries of the area of the diagram specified for each colour by the International Commission on Illumination (CIE).

The boundaries of the area for each colour are given by indicating the corner co-ordinates, which are
as follows:
...

(ii) Green
x 0.028 0.009 0.300 0.203
y 0.385 0.723 0.511 0.356
...

And if anyone is interested the cree c503 leds, red & green just fall inside the graph of the colregs numbers.

[kas_1611]

Originally Posted by StuM

There is a standard - it's in COLREGS. And it is independent of light source - it applies equally to oil lamps and LEDS since it specifies the colour of the output of the navigation light, not of the light source behind the filter.

ANNEX I:
7. Colour specification of lights
. The chromaticity of all navigation lights shall conform to the following standards, which lie within the boundaries of the area of the diagram specified for each colour by the International Commission on Illumination (CIE).

The boundaries of the area for each colour are given by indicating the corner co-ordinates, which are
as follows:
...

(ii) Green
x 0.028 0.009 0.300 0.203
y 0.385 0.723 0.511 0.356
...

Stu,
This is brilliant and thanks for sharing. Good to know there is an actual standard set down in the regulations for the light emitted from the lamp that is independent of the physical source. It suggests that the responsibility is on the lamp/filter manufacturer to ensure the correct colour is transmitted regardless of if it is LED or incandescent.
My gut feeling is that over time new navigation lamps will be designed for LEDs specifically so we will slowly see the colour problems disappear when using a warm white LED or where coloured LED units are used these will meet the same exacting colour specifications.

Cheers and cold beers

Keiron

[Bob666]

Please. I got no idea and Boatlamp is not responding to email.

I think this is what to buy?
https://boatlamps.co.uk/collections/...up-to-20m-65ft

[Bob666]

Ha! Found the receipt from previous owner. Hellamarine 3 farge kombi lanterne (That's Danish). Type 3089. Will order the tricolour LED bulb. And mount a small anchor lantern up there as well.

Anybody got a clue why there are two plus cables and one minus cable going into the Hellamarine? I know the BAY15D has two connectors at its base, but why? Perhaps I can use one of the plus cables for the anchor lantern instead? Or am I better off putting a 2,5 mm x 2 cable (plus and minus) through the 17 m mast...an addition to existing cabling.

The extra minus can boost the tricolour lantern + be used for the anchor lantern. That's all I got up there, and a wind gauge, but it's got its own cabling, won't mess with that now.

[Bob666]

A bit difficult to mount both anchor light and sailing light and get them not to obscure each other, and at the same time not too close to the VHF antenna.

What about mounting a LED strip as anchor light, further down the mast, perhaps 30 cm lower:
Cool White 1M 60LED 5050 SMD IP65 Waterproof Flexible LED Strip Light DC 12V | eBay

How can that LED strip possible draw 2 A? Must be wrong. Just 1 m!

[leftbrainstuff]

You can get marine spec led replacements. They've been around for a decade or more. They tend to be priced accordingly.

Not sure what benefit liquid filling provides you with at the mast head. Only use case I can think is for explosive atmospheres.

As a safety critical system I'm a little concerned with your desire to hack something together.

We replaced our old mast head light with a luna sea anchor, mast head and strobe. Pricey but much more visible than the old led light.

The extra wiring is probably as follows:

Common ground
Masthead +ve
Anchor +vr
Strobe +ve

The lunasea has 3 wires. This necessitates a number of diodes. The only annoying aspect of this unit.


sv Sedoza Sakona Liberty 458 hull 12