Marina shore power issue - breaker triggers and A/C protection

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by GILow

When you say the breaker is tripping, do you mean the over current breaker or the earth leakage breaker. (Residual current device or RCD)

I’ve seen situations where surges of current can induce enough current in the earth lead to trigger the rcd.

It is just the 10A breaker dedicated to the Charger that is opening.

John

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by Statistical

When the voltage is zero current is also zero. However if there are brownouts causing a voltage drop which eventually causes the marine power to trip them prior to voltage going completely to zero current would rise although I would expect low voltage detection in the charger to shut it off internally before amperage gets too high.

Yes, that is what i ment. When shore power drops, it does not drop to 0 right away. And that might be the moment the 10A breaker opens. And yes, there is an internal protection in the Charger, Quick told me so. But they said as well that if there are voltage spikes several times a week, that might damage the Charger in the long run. I know, two different things, but first he said the 10A breaker is not needed, and later he said it might be a good idea to have one to protect the charger....

Originally Posted by Statistical

Just to be clear though the breaker on your shorepower inlet (either on the pedestal or main AC on the boat) is NOT tripping? It is only the breaker for the branch which powers the charger?

Correct.

Originally Posted by Statistical

mains are 230V can you measure what it is on the boat. Also is the battery 12V or 24V? Just trying to figure out how many AC amps the charger is or should be drawing.

12V System.

Most of the time, AC Voltage on the boat is between 218V and 231V. Variing during the day. Since the issues is there, i am watching voltage all the time... Power outages vary between once a week and up to 3 times in the evening. Sometimes no power breakdown for 2 weeks, at least non of which i would know off...

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

Hmmmm...

Going back to the OP's first post...

Maybe I missed it in the discussion so far, but that seems like a possible, maybe even likely, cause of odd electrical gremlins, no?

This has nothing to do with the charger drawing too much current in normal operation. That ONLY happens with the batteries are low enough to accept it. Since he is plugged in to shore power all the time, it seems unlikely that the charger is working that hard, except right after recovery from a power failure, which hasn't been mentioned as a correlation.

My personnel experience with Quick chargers and the USA based Quick tech support is not good. Fragile, and prone to failure even well within specification operation.

Valid point, and i am still not sure what causes the problem...

My first question to Quick was if the issue could be related to the lightening strike or shore power issues.

After the lightning, the charger had a couple of internal fuses blown. Found them when opened the charger. Everything else looked OK. No burn marks.

Replaced the fuses and all was fine... Never had the 10A breaker opens when running the charger from the NL 6KW Generator. But that we do only limited times...

John

[GreenWave]

a large number of voltage spikes or dropouts causing the breaker to trip will 1) eventually wear out the breaker 2) put strain on the downstream device and possibly damage it and 3) is usually a sign that you have a problem upstream of the breaker. You need to find and fix that.

[Piscis]

Here the Quick responds:

First answer:
it's possible the electric system on the vessel, got an overload or fluctuation in the power supply, which triggered the breaker to open and disconnect the charger from the shore power.
I would suggest that you disconnect the batteries from the device and measure with a tester the voltage that's delivered on the outputs of the battery charger. Do you get any error on the display?
Please note however we neither recommend nor require the use of a fuse on the powering line of the device as it's already protected.
Awaiting your kind reply,
Best Regards,

Second answer:

any oscillation in the powering voltage of the device is detrimental to its functioning and may lead overtime to put the unit out of order.
It's hence paramount to ensure the generator that powers the device delivers a stable voltage. That's the reason in case an onboard generator should be used it's important it's stable
Must say we don't suggest the use of an external circuit breaker, as it's not necessary for the proper functioning of the device. Our battery charger already feature a protection against spikes, though in case the spike is excessive, it might still potentially damage the device. However, since you find yourself on a dock where the voltage oscillates a lot, despite not needed under normal conditions, maybe the use of the circuit breaker isn't a bad idea. Feel free to contact me for any further clarifications or requests,
Best Regards,

[Bbolino]

Is it a ground fault breaker? If yes check the neutral and ground wires and connections
There is no way a battery charger is tripping a 50 amp breaker intermittenly
I would check your ac units - one may not be starting all the time (Low voltage or bad capacitor) - that will trip the breaker
Also check the connected load. If enough things are on together it could trip

[charliepsycho]

From what you have said, the charger itself was in place when you were struck by lightning and the chargers internal fuses went.

My experience is that if something is struck by lightning, then it is toast. The fuses may well have gone (and are a good indicator that the lightning got that far!) It may look OK, but the voltages you are talking about will have leapt around inside the charger like a wrecking ball.

In terms of putting in some sort of power smoother/surge suppressor to stop the trip, nah... It wont stop a trip going and wouldn't stop a charger overloading the trip (even a fancy electronic one.) It's more likely that something esoteric is arcing in your charger.

Borrow another charger from someone else and try that

I'd recommend either a Sterling or Victron Charger.

[DerekL]

I had a similar problem on my previous boat. I had a 25amp charger at 12V and so ~1.3 amps at 230V but it regularly tripped the 6A breaker on switch on. I replaced the charger and the same thing happened. I am fairly sure that the problem was caused by the transformer inrush current in the charger. I changed to a 16A breaker and I have never had a problem after that.

[nofacey]

Originally Posted by Piscis

Thanks! The vessel has already a galvanic isolator. Installed is the PROSAFE FS60. Buying a new Charger would be the last step to do. And i dont want to spend lots of $$, just to find out that the problem is still occuring... LOL

There’s a world of difference between a galvanic isolator and an isolation transformer. - You asked how to improve your incoming power conditioning - an isolation transformer is the answer.

[ccanupii]

I agree with 'nofacey', in order to provide clean power to the boat you need an isolarion transformer.

Breakers and fuses are in place to protect the wiring, not the device. If your charger is plugged into an outlet, that outlet should be on a breaker. Of you are wiring your charger directly it needs to be on a breaker. The advice from the manufacturer is either a communication error or one giant red flag. And yes, you should put in fuses from your battery charger to you batteries.

If the marina is suffering power outages, then the only way to fix that from your boat is to either move to a new marina or install an inverter/charger. Victron and Mastervolt are top of the list and my preference is Victron. Multiplus you have to do the switching manually Quattro is automatic. Both can be pricey but you get what you pay for.

I know you probably don't want to read this, but you may need to hire someone to check this out for you. Easy and cheap, in my opinion, should not be in the conversation when dealing with electrical issues. Quality parts and wiring are expensive. Working on electrical issues can be deadly. Be safe and use a lock out system.

[s/v Jedi]

Yeah, I guess I’m too tired to explain it all over every time I post my diagram and someone says “I already have a galvanic isolator”.

A galvanic isolator does something with the ground conductor only… if it actually works. The power phase and neutral are not altered in any way.

In contrast, an isolation transformer terminates all shore power conductors and only uses it to create a magnetic field. The power you get aboard is virgin, from a new power source.

You follow that up with a whole house surge suppressor and you got a hardened system similar to military use, or operating rooms in hospitals, clean rooms in laboratories etc.

[ccanupii]

The Quattro is your surge protector. It uses battery power to assist when voltages are low and it takes up to 64a and puts out your programmed system amount. House surge protectors really aren't for the marine environment.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by ccanupii

The Quattro is your surge protector. It uses battery power to assist when voltages are low and it takes up to 64a and puts out your programmed system amount. House surge protectors really aren't for the marine environment.

This is incorrect. The Quattro has some surge protection but it’s only for itself if it is enough at all.

For DIN Rail, these are good options:

For AC: https://www.amazon.com/Baomain-Prote.../dp/B01KT1DF5G

For DC: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09KBRXXXR

Note that the ground connection goes to the ship bonding system with a Dynaplate under the hull. I do not have that connected to ships AC ground.

Here is a diagram showing DC protection.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by ccanupii

The Quattro is your surge protector. It uses battery power to assist when voltages are low and it takes up to 64a and puts out your programmed system amount. House surge protectors really aren't for the marine environment.

That isn't a surge protector. Surge protector clamps down on surges that is spikes in voltage.

[kubota]

does the charge breaker only go when air con is powered?

2 shore cords or one with dual terminals?

what model inverter.

i have seen wiring issues with 230 and 110 system crossovers blowing the lowest breaker in system especially with start loads of air con.

if your inverter is not a permanent install type,
it can bleed hi voltage back through common neutral and inv grnd to dc neg. long story. ill explain if your inverter model is not appropriate. that would certainly tie in the bat chrgr breaker.

and lastly, did you check polarity of all shore cords to grnd and to each other with good voltmeter (harbor freight doesnt count).

seen all of the above trip seemingly unrelated breakers.

electrical ghosts are the best.
we should have a thread for swapping ghost stories.