Maxsea TZ, NAIS-300, Maretron USB100 all on N2K

[s/v Jedi]

Yes, we have a N2K fest here in Panama

If it would only stop raining haha. Mark is incommunicado.... I went by his boat and all I saw was his cockpit full with ripped open carton boxes

cheers,
Nick.

[twistedtree]

Have you tried running N2KAnalyser on your PC with the USB100? With it you could at least confirm which AIS PNGs are present on the N2K bus. That would help isolate the problem to the USB100 and/or software on the PC side.

You might also contact Maretron. I'm guessing you've already checked for updates to the USB100 to be sure you are running the latest FW? If nothing else they should know people want these things to work.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by DotDun

How is the electronics rebuild going?

I have ripped open all the carton boxes...

Mark

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by twistedtree

Have you tried running N2KAnalyser on your PC with the USB100? With it you could at least confirm which AIS PNGs are present on the N2K bus. That would help isolate the problem to the USB100 and/or software on the PC side.

You might also contact Maretron. I'm guessing you've already checked for updates to the USB100 to be sure you are running the latest FW? If nothing else they should know people want these things to work.

Yes, I now have Mark's USB100 too so that I can use one with Maxsea and the other to analyze the network.

There is another aspect to this... Maretron also has an API for direct access to PGNs on the network instead of 0183 conversion; this is what their own software like the analyzer uses. When the nav software would start supporting that, the problems with conversion would disappear.

I may do the tests tomorrow and post results here.

ciao!
Nick.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

There is another aspect to this... Maretron also has an API for direct access to PGNs on the network instead of 0183 conversion; this is what their own software like the analyzer uses. When the nav software would start supporting that, the problems with conversion would disappear.

FWIW, Nobeltec Trident (TZ) uses the Actisense NGT-1 for direct access to N2k. MacENC uses it for receive and will transmit on N2K with the NGT-1 in the next release.

[s/v Jedi]

Navigation computer: Apple MacMini running Windows 7 64-bit
Analyzer computer: Apple MacBookPro running Windows XP
Maretron N2KAnalyzer v2.0.4
Maretron USB100 firmware v1.8.3
MaxSea TimeZero Explorer v1.9.6
Simrad Robertson AP25 w/ AC40 autopilot firmware v01000_E 1200
=> AP has no other connection than SimNet-N2K adapter cable.
Furuno NavNet 3D MFD12, latest firmware too

===============>>>> Scenario 1 - MaxSea using NavNet Ethernet link

Analyzer reports PGNs 129283(1Hz) and 129284(1Hz) start transmitting from the Furuno MFD which now acts as the gateway between N2K and NavNet.

129283 - Cross Track Error
<some plain standard XTE info>

129284 - Navigation Data
Destination: Global
Distance to Destination Waypoint: 2.200000 nm
Course/Bearing Ref.: Magnetic
Calculation Type: Great Circle Calculations
ETA Time: 24:00:01
ETA Date: -MMDDYYYY
Bearing, Origin To Destination Waypoint: 113.199265 deg.M
Bearing, Position to Destination Waypoint: 113.199265 deg.M
Origin Waypoint Number: 0
Destination Waypoint Number: 8
Destination Wpt Latitude: 9.355495 deg. Lat
Destination Wpt Longitude: -79.915436 deg. Long
Waypoint Closing Velocity: -0.038877 Kt

Autopilot accepts waypoint. It shows:
WP 00000008
BWW 113 deg. M
CHG 077 ->

(that last one means it needs to change course 77 degrees to starboard)


===============>>>> scenario 2 - MaxSea using USB100 N2K link

For this, I pull the Ethernet link off the MacMini and give it a USB link to Mark's USB100, installing the newest drivers (Windows 7 64-bit). Next I run the connection wizard inside MaxSea, which finds the virtual serial port and accepts the more basic network data. Next I configure Autopilot output on the same serial port, sending both BOD and RMB sentences exactly like the USB100 manual shows on page 10/11.

I switch the analyzer to look at the 2nd USB100 instead of the Furuno MFD. I enable the goto in MaxSea and....

The USB100 starts sending PGNs 129283 (1Hz), 129284 (1Hz) and 129285(once only)

I check the autopilot and it says:

Valid data
not available
NAV000

So, what is in the PGNs this time:

129283 - Cross Track Error
<some plain standard XTE info>

129284 - Navigation Data
Destination: Global
Distance to Destination Waypoint: 2.195200 nm
Course/Bearing Ref.: True
Calculation Type: Great Circle Calculations
ETA Time: -
ETA Date: -MMDDYYYY
Bearing, Origin To Destination Waypoint: 110.099564 deg.M
Bearing, Position to Destination Waypoint: 110.099564 deg.M
Origin Waypoint Number: -
Destination Waypoint Number: -
Destination Wpt Latitude: 9.355495 deg. Lat
Destination Wpt Longitude: -79.915436 deg. Long
Waypoint Closing Velocity: -0.019438 Kt (it actually changes now and then)

129285 - Navigation - Route/WP information
=> empty message transmitted once only

So, the one obvious difference is the PGN 129284 Course/Bearing ref. changing from magnetic to true, while maintaining a Magnetic reference in the actual Bearing references... which are 110 degrees instead of the earlier 113.2 degrees. Interesting.... I checked the MaxSea config, under "Units" it says "Bearing Display: Magnetic". I did not find a way to change this field to Magnetic instead of True.

Let's find magnetic variation... this is transmitted by the Maretron GPS200 sensor in PGN 127258 at a 1Hz rate. It lists using source WMM-2010 and a -3.357533 deg. variation... AHA !!

Conclusion: the USB100 actually sends true bearings instead of magnetic. Page B1 in the USB100 manual confirms that PGN 129284 takes a True bearing from the 0183 BOD sentence and a field 11 of the RMB sentence for bearing position to destination, whatever true/magnetic that is supposed to be...

Also, I can not configure the USB100 to start sending PGN 127258 for magnetic variation. I have no quick way to monitor a serial port output from MaxSea to find what data it sends to the USB100.

At this point I think we should probably ask Maretron to put magnetic references in 129284... that is, when other autopilots also want magnetic bearings... may be it should be a configuration option instead of hard coded?

cheers,
Nick.

[DotDun]

Nick,

I also observed there is no destination wpt declared in PGN 129284 from the USB100. This may be a problem for your AP, he may not like that. Note: Unlike 0183, N2K does not support alpha wpt names, only numeric, hence if MSTZ is sending alpha wpt data via 0183, the USB100 may be gagging on it.

When I discussed the magnetic vs. true with Actisense, they responded with a question of where do you want that calculation to take place? In a gateway? Probably not. That calculation belongs in either the CP or AP. In your case, you really want MSTZ to send a mag BTW via 0183 and the USB100 to simply translate to N2K. Also, in my testing with a Simrad AP20 on 0183, it will definitely accept a BTW as true as long as you give him mag var in an RMC statement he will do the calculation. I would guess your SimNet AP would do the same.

BTW, you can download the NMEA reader program from Actisense (free) and monitor the output of MSTZ into the USB100 if you have a spare USB serial port adapter.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by DotDun

BTW, you can download the NMEA reader program from Actisense (free) and monitor the output of MSTZ into the USB100 if you have a spare USB serial port adapter.

You might give NavMonPC a try also. It has virtual serial port capabilities that I've had luck with. It may save the need for another serial port and related alligator clips.

[akio.kanemoto]

OK, so having read all of the above - it looks like:

1. Maretron USB100 is a useless piece of crap and I bought it to use as a book-end. It appears to have only partial functionality and is not a full-fit-for-purpose device. (I expected it to translate all (most?) PGNs and dump them into the virtual COM and visa versa).


2. Having just read through the Actisense manuals - it appears that while it comes at a fabulous price-point, it also is a PoS and only talks via its own DLL with specific software only (of which Maxsea TZ is not one... well it says a "beta" has been released... any experiences here?)


So is there no device which just uses a virtual COM via USB and bilaterally translates all PGNs/sentences onto N2K?

Am I understanding correctly, that even if I'm happy to pay whatever is required, and put up with more electronic clutter, that there is no solution to get the Simrad AC42, NAIS-300 and Maxsea TZ all to work together?

I'm feeling seasick...

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by akio.kanemoto

I'm feeling seasick...

Welcome to the club!

I tested the USB100 over 2 years ago. Bought the Actisense NGT-1 instead, and I still don't have a laptop based CP sending data to the AP on N2K (but almost, MacENC next release!). The good news, I'm not all that upset! It's just a backup system for me, so (2) Furuno NavNet3D MFDs would have to fail before I resort to the laptop (which has never happened!). If that does happen nothing prevents me from reading CTS on the laptop and set the AP on that heading, not a big tragedy if it got to that point. Of course, I could always string a 0183 cable between the laptop and AP and I know it would work.

I collect a paycheck doing protocol design work, gladly not in NMEA. This whole problem comes down to the manufacturers dragging their feet to accept a standardized protocol that then leads to commodity pricing of their products. If you were making tons of $$ gouging your customer, how willing would you be to move to N2K? I seriously believe they chose CANbus over ethernet for the very same reason, all the lip service they give to reliability, prioritization, etc. is just that lip service. Hence, CANbus & N2K ain't async serial ascii data, so it's just not straight forward to interface to with a PC, now you understand why they didn't chose TCP/IP and ethernet!

The NMEA convention was ~50 miles from me a few months ago. I was thinking of going and voice my opinion about their debacle of protocol design. I refrained as they probably would have ended up calling for extra security!

The best solution is to wait for the CP software to fully support the NGT-1 as 0183/N2K conversion is a hack at best!

[s/v Jedi]

I find the USB100 is a nice piece of gear to have, more so when you have Maretron sensors. You get the included analyzer software plus it works good enough with MaxSea.

Do you have a plotter?

cheers,
Nick.

[akio.kanemoto]

I tested the USB100 over 2 years ago. Bought the Actisense NGT-1 instead, and I still don't have a laptop based CP sending data to the AP on N2K (but almost, MacENC next release!). The good news, I'm not all that upset! It's just a backup system for me, so (2) Furuno NavNet3D MFDs would have to fail before I resort to the laptop (which has never happened!). If that does happen nothing prevents me from reading CTS on the laptop and set the AP on that heading, not a big tragedy if it got to that point. Of course, I could always string a 0183 cable between the laptop and AP and I know it would work.

Hmm... my problem is that the laptop is the primary and only chartplotter (I will add another few PCs for backup etc, but I'm allergic to MFPs..)

I collect a paycheck doing protocol design work, gladly not in NMEA. This whole problem comes down to the manufacturers dragging their feet to accept a standardized protocol that then leads to commodity pricing of their products. If you were making tons of $$ gouging your customer, how willing would you be to move to N2K? I seriously believe they chose CANbus over ethernet for the very same reason, all the lip service they give to reliability, prioritization, etc. is just that lip service. Hence, CANbus & N2K ain't async serial ascii data, so it's just not straight forward to interface to with a PC, now you understand why they didn't chose TCP/IP and ethernet!

It certainly would have made life easier, that's for sure...

But what I'm suprized at is the business opportunity for Maretron or Actisense to make a proper translator... I mean Maretron's USB100 is very clever with it's virtual COM port method (why I bought it)... but why would they not just add all the used PGNs to their supported list instead of just a few? It's not from a competition or market segmentation perspective - they don't have another product to sell instead.. ?

The NMEA convention was ~50 miles from me a few months ago. I was thinking of going and voice my opinion about their debacle of protocol design. I refrained as they probably would have ended up calling for extra security!

*grin*

The best solution is to wait for the CP software to fully support the NGT-1 as 0183/N2K conversion is a hack at best!

Yes, but why would a giant like Furuno, waste their time coding to support a flea like Actisense? Actisense sales won't even remotely help push the demand for the support... so the support likely will never come.

[akio.kanemoto]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I find the USB100 is a nice piece of gear to have, more so when you have Maretron sensors. You get the included analyzer software plus it works good enough with MaxSea.

Do you have a plotter?

cheers,
Nick.

Hi Nick,

I thought the USB100 was fabulous until I started using the stuff I installed. On Maxsea, it shows me where I am, but no AIS targets, and while I haven't tried yet, likely no AP control either.

For AIS, if there's another device to pull the PGNs off the N2K network and dump them to serial/USB, I can buy that and use another USB port on the laptop. (any ideas on a product that will work - I don't think the actisense will work together with the usb100 and maxsea tz together)

For the AC42 - from your experiences, it looks like that's a showstopper fullstop... no ideas there at all to use the usb100 with Maxsea TZ... apart from "wait for support" right?

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I find the USB100 is a nice piece of gear to have, more so when you have Maretron sensors. You get the included analyzer software plus it works good enough with MaxSea.

I commend Maretron for their pioneering work in N2K, but I find their products are too expensive and not as functional at this point in the life cycle of N2K.

The USB100 is nice for troubleshooting N2K, but translates a total of (2) 0183 sentences to N2K. The Actisense NGW-1 translates (28) 0183 sentences (and adding more all the time) to N2K. And at less than half the price! The Actisense analyzer software is also included. Yes, it takes 2 Actisense boxes to do it (analyze and 0183 conversion), but most of time you don't want both functions in the same box.

Good enough with Maxsea? You can't drive your AP with it!

Which N2K box did Maxsea & Nobeltec chose? Not Maretron, they chose the Actisense NGT-1.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by akio.kanemoto

For AIS, if there's another device to pull the PGNs off the N2K network and dump them to serial/USB, I can buy that and use another USB port on the laptop. (any ideas on a product that will work - I don't think the actisense will work together with the usb100 and maxsea tz together)

Nobeltec supports the NGT-1 (N2K straight into PC). Since Maxsea already is working towards supporting the NGT-1 and they purchased Nobeltec, the best you can hope for is Nobeltec shares NGT-1 code with Maxsea and they both support the NGT-1 soon.

It might even be worth an inquiry to Maxsea to find out, it may already be there.

You really want to stay away from 0183 to N2K conversion if at all possible.