MMSI registration info change with purchase of boat

[Dogscout]

Originally Posted by continuouswave

Please point to some ITU document that supports you assertion of the existence of a "internationally recognized" MMSI compared to non-internationally recognized one.

As far as I can tell, the applicable document is

Recommendation ITU-R M.585-8
(10/2019)
Assignment and use of identities in the
maritime mobile service

https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r...0-I!!PDF-E.pdf

And ALL SHIP STATIONS are supposed to use an MMSI assigned according the ANNEX 1.

In Annex 1 the recommendation is:



My inference regarding the FCC issuing MMSI that end in zero and the private agencies issuing MMSI that ends 1-9 is that it was just a simple way to allot all the possible numbers and to reserve the ends-in-zero for the FCC because those numbers might be needed to accommodate legacy ship identities for other systems.

But if you are in any country, an MMSI that does not end in zero will still work for operating your vessel with DSC and AIS.

However, being a USA boat and having an MMSI that does not end in zero might be a way for authorities in another country to infer you do not have an FCC ship station license.

This is from the BOATUS web site.

BoatUS MMSI numbers are for US registered or documented, recreational vessels under 65’ that are not visiting or communicating with foreign ports. The registration data provided to BoatUS is only transferred into the U.S. Coast Guard Search & Rescue Database (MISLE). International search & rescue agencies do not have access to the registration data provided to BoatUS.

Registration data for FCC-assigned MMSI numbers go into the International Telecom Union (ITU) database that is accessible to international search & rescue agencies. In order to be accepted into the ITU database, any FCC assigned MMSI must end in zero. This is why the BoatUS MMSI number cannot be re-used when later applying for an FCC MMSI number for international cruising.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Knotical

Hi all, thanks for resurrecting this thread as I am still confused about all this, and there are some helpful replies lately.

My boat only has a VHF radio with MMSI number (no AIS or HF radio), when we bought her the PO gave me login info on USPS website for the MMSI and just had me change the personal info, if the CG looks up my MMSI they will find my contact info on USPS website. Now, I don't know if this is right or not, my big question is what happens when I buy a AIS or another VHF, do I program the same MMSI even though it wasn't me who obtained it initially and the transfer was just changing login info?

Feedback appreciated

I presume you mean BoatUS

Normally with BoatUS , the previous owner cancels the number and you can apply to then transfer it to you

If you have the previous owners login , you can clearly initiate that transfer to you.

You can then apply to have the mmsi assigned to you , money changes hand also !

[continuouswave]

Originally Posted by Dogscout

This is from the BOATUS web site...

That reply does not adhere to my request for information from an ITU recommendation. I do not recognize BoatUS as authoritative.

The situation in the USA where the FCC does not provide information to the ITU on MMSI registrations that the FCC allowed private agencies to issue to boaters is not something that is codified in the ITU recommendations. It is just a method cooked-up by the FCC to provide MMSI to boaters who do not want an FCC SHIP STATION LICENSE.

There is nothing intrinsic in an MMSI that ends in 1 to 9 that makes it work differently in the DSC or AIS protocols.

The FCC has discovered that it had in the past omitted sending data to ITU about registrations it had issued itself.

I recall that the FCC and the private MMSI-issuing agencies were supposed to be working with Canada to exchange all their MMSI registration data. I don't know if this has been accomplished. The operation of the federal government in both countries has been somewhat disrupted by the pandemic in 2020, so I would expect that low-priority projects are not receiving much effort.

[continuouswave]

Originally Posted by Knotical

...boat only has a VHF radio with MMSI number...when we bought her the PO gave me login info on USPS website for the MMSI and just had me change the personal info

Originally Posted by Knotical

...if the CG looks up my MMSI they will find my contact info on USPS website.

I can't say for certain WHICH RESOURCE the USCG will use if it wants to obtain administrative information about the registrant of an MMSI for a USA boat that ends in 1 to 9. There are several private registration authorities: U.S. Power Squadron, BoatUS, and a couple others from some time ago.

The notion that the USCG would search three or four different websites run by private MMSI-issuing authorities to discover information about an MMSI registrant sounds rather unlikely, awkward, and impractical.

I suspect that the USCG has a better resource for discovering administrative information about registrants of MMSI for USA boats than the method you hypothesize they would use.

Originally Posted by Knotical

..what happens when I buy [an] AIS [transmitter] or another VHF [radio]: do I program the same MMSI[?]

Yes; the MMSI is associated to a SHIP; it is NOT associated with individual devices aboard the ship.

Originally Posted by Knotical

...even though [I] wasn't who obtained [the MMSI] initially and the transfer [of the MMSI] was just changing login info?

I have no idea exactly what you have accomplished with your use of the private MMSI agency website and its log-in credentials.

If you have properly transferred the MMSI registration to reflect that you are the owner of the SHIP and you are the point of contact for this SHIP, then you are the registrant of the MMSI.

When entering an MMSI into a RADIO the process is done by the individual ship owner.

When entering an MMSI into an AIS transmitter, in the USA the selling vendor MUST pre-configure the device with the MMSI, based on information provided to the vendor by the buyer that indicates the buyer is the owner of the SHIP whose MMSI is to be entered into the AIS transmitter.

[continuouswave]

Regarding why a MMSI for a USA SHIP that ends in 1 to 9 won't be in the global database of SHIPS maintained by the ITU:

SHIPS that make international voyages will get an MMSI issued by the FCC, and the FCC shares that data with the ITU.

The only USA SHIPS that would get an MMSI from a private MMSI-issuing agency (like BoatUS or USPS) are ships whose owners attest that they WILL NOT BE MAKING INTERNATIONAL VOYAGES.

It seems quite reasonable and logical that if a ship owner attests the ship will not make international voyages that there is little need or little reason to include the MMSI of that ship and administrative information about the owner in a global database of ships that DO make international voyages.

The determination for owners of SHIPS in the USA about which agency they should use to get an MMSI is clear:

--if the SHIP needs a station license issued by the FCC, it should get the MMSI from the FCC;

--if the SHIP is covered by the licensed-by-rule situation, it can get an MMSI from a private MMSI-issuing authority. The MMSI and administrative information will not be shared with the global ITU database because the SHIP will NOT make international voyages--this is a defining criterion for being a licensed-by-rule ship radio station.

All ships in the USA will NEED an FCC-issued station license, unless they fall under the specific criteria for licensed-by-rule. Those criteria are:

--the ship is voluntarily-equipped with a radio, which is typical for recreational vessels;
--the ship radio will not be used to contact foreign shore stations
--the ship will not make international voyages.

[continuouswave]

Originally Posted by Knotical

...if the CG looks up my MMSI they will find my contact info on USPS website.

The USCG is more likely to look up information about your boat based on the MMSI in their own database: Marine Information for Safety and Law Enforcement (MISLE) System.

1.2 From whom is information collected?
Vessel Information

Coast Guard personnel obtains information on vessels through one of the following means...Maritime Mobile Service Identity (MMSI) database...

See:

https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/...uscg_misle.pdf

Exactly how often the USCG updates their database based on information they receive from private MMSI-issuing agencies in the USA regarding modification to registrant data is unknown to me.

ASIDE: thanks to user DOGSCOUT for the mention of MISLE in his post that appeared to quote BoatUS.

[Dogscout]

So getting back to SERPA4 in post #17. What is the best information to give him regarding his questions. In my mind, ignore all past MMSI information on the radio and get a new one via FCC and have some vendor program it into the existing radio or program the new number into a new radio yourself during setup. Ignore the old number. Its gone.

As for arguing the law or its intent that does not answer his question.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by continuouswave

Please point to some ITU document that supports you assertion of the existence of a "internationally recognized" MMSI compared to non-internationally recognized one.

As far as I can tell, the applicable document is

Recommendation ITU-R M.585-8
(10/2019)
Assignment and use of identities in the
maritime mobile service

https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r...0-I!!PDF-E.pdf

And ALL SHIP STATIONS are supposed to use an MMSI assigned according the ANNEX 1.

In Annex 1 the recommendation is:



My inference regarding the FCC issuing MMSI that end in zero and the private agencies issuing MMSI that ends 1-9 is that it was just a simple way to allot all the possible numbers and to reserve the ends-in-zero for the FCC because those numbers might be needed to accommodate legacy ship identities for other systems.

But if you are in any country, an MMSI that does not end in zero will still work for operating your vessel with DSC and AIS.

However, being a USA boat and having an MMSI that does not end in zero might be a way for authorities in another country to infer you do not have an FCC ship station license.

Indeed , I just received a new MMSI from the Irish authorities , it end in 2

[serpa4]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Indeed , I just received a new MMSI from the Irish authorities , it end in 2

I just got mine from FCC for occasional trips to the Bahamas. It ends in Zero.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by serpa4

I just got mine from FCC for occasional trips to the Bahamas. It ends in Zero.

Yes because as was explained 1-9 has been allocated to private non FCC (And hence non ITU) mmsi providers

[AlanT]

Originally Posted by Dogscout

So getting back to SERPA4 in post #17. What is the best information to give him regarding his questions. In my mind, ignore all past MMSI information on the radio and get a new one via FCC and have some vendor program it into the existing radio or program the new number into a new radio yourself during setup. Ignore the old number. Its gone.

As for arguing the law or its intent that does not answer his question.

Good advice. If the radio is relatively new you can probably find the instructions to change the MMSI on this site. I did exactly that and was able to reset and enter my new MMSI on a Simrad RS 35 VHF last week. It took one attempt and less than 5 minutes just using the keys on the face of the VHF with no need to open it up. Older VHFs may require more than just a code. There is a video on You Tube showing how to change an MMSI on an older radio by temporarily soldering two terminals together. Good luck ~Alan

[requiem]

Originally Posted by continuouswave

My inference regarding the FCC issuing MMSI that end in zero and the private agencies issuing MMSI that ends 1-9 is that it was just a simple way to allot all the possible numbers and to reserve the ends-in-zero for the FCC because those numbers might be needed to accommodate legacy ship identities for other systems.

This seems quite reasonable, and aligns with the ITU regs that call for countries to conserve such numbers. The ITU radio regulations also require a government-issued ship station license. My impression is that FCC saw no need to sync the BoatUS / USPS data to the ITU since anyone who would have need of that should be talking to FCC in the first place as part of obtaining a ship station license.

Originally Posted by continuouswave

Exactly how often the USCG updates their database based on information they receive from private MMSI-issuing agencies in the USA regarding modification to registrant data is unknown to me.

As of a few years back, the data was supposedly synced weekly. (source).

Anyway, Dogscout's recommendation seems the cleanest fix. My impression is that many radios allow two attempts to enter a number before needing to send it in, solder, or pressing magic key combinations, so you may have one "free" attempt left.

[CarinaPDX]

Again, I remind you that with a zero-ending MMSI in the US you can create a group call MMSI by shifting the zero to the first position. If all of the boats on a rendezvous or in a club or just friends enter the number into their radio as a group call then calling that MMSI rings all members radios. Cool.

Greg

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Again, I remind you that with a zero-ending MMSI in the US you can create a group call MMSI by shifting the zero to the first position. If all of the boats on a rendezvous or in a club or just friends enter the number into their radio as a group call then calling that MMSI rings all members radios. Cool.

Greg

That can be done with any mmsi it has nothing to with a zero ending mmsi

Group mmsi are designated by a leading zero , there is NO specific format of a group number after that. ITU recommends assigning the MID after the leading zero.

After that the remaining digits are freely assignable by the group , ie you “make up” the group mmsi

Simply adding a leading zero and hence loosing the right most zero does not make other radios respond. You have to enter the designated group mmsi into each radio in advance

My GX1850 allows that form of group call or it allows you to collect together individual mmsi into a “ group “ which is easier to do since it doesn’t require the receiving radio to have a group mmsi programmed

The FCC MMSI no more then any mmsi , doesn’t facilitate deployment of group mmsi’s

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

That can be done with any mmsi it has nothing to with a zero ending mmsi

Group mmsi are designated by a leading zero , there is NO specific format of a group number after that. ITU recommends assigning the MID after the leading zero.

After that the remaining digits are freely assignable by the group , ie you “make up” the group mmsi

Simply adding a leading zero and hence loosing the right most zero does not make other radios respond. You have to enter the designated group mmsi into each radio in advance

My GX1850 allows that form of group call or it allows you to collect together individual mmsi into a “ group “ which is easier to do since it doesn’t require the receiving radio to have a group mmsi programmed

The FCC MMSI no more then any mmsi , doesn’t facilitate deployment of group mmsi’s

I don't know whether there is any firmware limitation in the radio, but the FCC is clear about how to do it in 47 CFR § 80.103:

(d) Group calls to vessels under the common control of a single entity are authorized. A group call identity may be created from an MMSI ending in a zero, assigned to this single entity, by deleting the trailing zero and adding a leading zero to the identity.

Using a zero and random 8 digits would not be legal, if for no other reason than the 2nd through 4th digits must be the MID. The reason the FCC does it this way is so they can identify who is operating the group call. They never allow anyone to "make up" an identifier, whether call sign or MMSI. So it might be possible to do it but it is not in compliance with the FCC for US jurisdiction.

Greg