New iPhones and the imminent death of the MFD

[barnakiel]

The power argument is only half valid.


Because an MFD will turn blank when the wire gets wet, while a tablet will keep on going until the INTERNAL batt is flat.


This gives a smartphone / tablet up to 20 hours of an advantage.


I personally would like mobile MFD device but these are not many (pls correct me on this). There was a Garmin series but I think they stopped making these. (I think it was called 620 or similar).


b.

[sudarkoff]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

The power argument is only half valid.


Because an MFD will turn blank when the wire gets wet, while a tablet will keep on going until the INTERNAL batt is flat.

If you cut the power cord, you'll have to make all communications wireless, which wouldn't be as reliable.

[thinwater]

Try using a touch screen in the rain while someone is jostling you with a hand on your shoulder. You won't be able to do the most basic things. You need buttons.

[Tillsbury]

Don't forget that using only MFDs and eschewing the use of mobile devices (or only using small cheap hand-held ones) has been known to make people angry and prone to incoherent ranting.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by sudarkoff

If you cut the power cord, you'll have to make all communications wireless, which wouldn't be as reliable.

This is how it is on my boat. Wireless. Have not seen any reliability issues ever.


When my crew shouts depth readouts to me, is our communication wireless or are am I hard-wired to her vocal cords?


It is wireless, and reliable.



Cut the wire to the MFD now, for comparison. Data reliaibility no problem either - with that screen blank.


And is a mobile phone less reliable than a corded one? Uhm. Dunno. Have not seen relevant data.



!


AC tacticians use mobile mfds with wireless data flows and touch screens. I can't see them complaining about wet hands or data loss. With millions of dollars at stake.


Barn door rudders, heavy pedestal chained mfds - things of the past.


Wired is good but wireless is not less reliable.



b.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, camkelly.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

One of my criteria for agreeing to crew on a boat is if the boat is equipped with “adequate” nav instruments. In all cases except maybe a daysail on a small boat in very well known water with few obstructions, that includes an MFD. If the skipper doesn’t value his crews safety enough to have a proper, working, dedicated MFD, I am certainly not going to trust his judgement for any matter
Relating to my safety. Of course I always bring my own mobile and handheld devices just in case, but that is for if the proper equipment should fail.

Can I assume that you coordinate what you are bringing and the charging thereof with the skipper? Even with my preparatory emails to crew I end up with personal electronics we can't charge, and no I'm not unplugging my go-kit nav system so you can charge something we didn't discuss in planning, and you certainly are not going to overload a cig lighter power point.

Originally Posted by barnakiel

This is how it is on my boat. Wireless. Have not seen any reliability issues ever.


/snip/


Wired is good but wireless is not less reliable.

Not my experience. WiFi and Bluetooth share the ISM band with everything from GPS to microwave ovens. The more stuff you load up the more likely to encounter interference. WiFi in particular is showing up on more and more equipment. AIS to (I kid you not) freezers. It's going to get worse before it gets better.



I certainly appreciate the flexibility and convenience of wireless communications between and among devices on board. My delivery navigation go-kit includes hardwired charting, GPS, and AIS.



That isn't to say wired is perfect either. USB connections in particular are subject to corrosion and require maintenance.



In the aggregate, wired is more reliable.



On my own boat, MFD under the dodger hardwired to GPS and sailing instruments, Ethernet (wired) to laptop at nav station, hardwired Pactor modem to HF/SSB. WiFi to provide nav information to tablet and phones for convenience, WiFi range extender on the same network. Bluetooth for headphones and printer. No microwave (*grin*).

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Not my experience.

Is that from data logging? Have you seen missed messages? Were they TCP or UDP?
I've played with sending UDP NMEA @ 100Hz over wifi to a rasp pi then saved into a database, from memory the missed messages were below 1%, with youtube being watched over the same network. Maybe collisions or just lost packets. Should really try sending TCP messages from a dozen or so different IP addresses just to see what happens. QUite easy from node-red. Bandwidth shouldn't be a problem, the data is tiny.
Muttnik is the guy who really knows what he's talking about re networking, who be interesting if he's about.

I've never had a problem sending nmea over wifi despite streaming web radio or youtube over the same network, and had 1 nmea data cable break, which means nothing

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by conachair

Is that from data logging?

Nothing deterministic. I have seen dropped connections (need to associate again) and observably slow update rates. The Iridium GO! is a pain in this respect. Mix of TCP (the bloody freezer) and UDP (Bad Elf GPS). On one boat I ended up taping off the microwave as it slowed everything to a crawl. I now keep netstumbler on my laptop so I can (with enough time to pull down manuals) shift WiFi channel assignments around. *sigh*



If everything is on the same network its easier. My experience is that every freaking (sorry) device wants to be an AP and they don't play nicely together. You're better off with one network than eight. At least smart companies like Vesper build their gear to be either an AP or a client.


I've also run into issues with other boats. If the boat coming in the inlet with you has eight APs and you're nav updates slow way down that is a problem. I won't even think about cruise ships.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Nothing deterministic. I have seen dropped connections (need to associate again) and observably slow update rates. The Iridium GO! is a pain in this respect. Mix of TCP (the bloody freezer) and UDP (Bad Elf GPS). On one boat I ended up taping off the microwave as it slowed everything to a crawl. I now keep netstumbler on my laptop so I can (with enough time to pull down manuals) shift WiFi channel assignments around. *sigh*



If everything is on the same network its easier. My experience is that every freaking (sorry) device wants to be an AP and they don't play nicely together. You're better off with one network than eight. At least smart companies like Vesper build their gear to be either an AP or a client.


I've also run into issues with other boats. If the boat coming in the inlet with you has eight APs and you're nav updates slow way down that is a problem. I won't even think about cruise ships.

Sounds like a mess.. why not just set the nav network to a free channel and keep nav gear on that channel. Sounds like you're complaining about microwaves, not wifi, which works really well for nav gear & sensors onboard

[DawnTreader]

Thought I would add a little discovery me made using iPad as our primary gps/chart plotter. When the temperature gets down to freezing, they must be connected to a charger at all times because the lithium battery will simply not hold a charge at all. Same with computers. Found out about this in the Falkland Islands when we dropped our chimney cap overboard, losing our heater. We ended using hot water bottles to gently heat our devices. We don't have any plans to change to MFD, but it is another tradeoff to consider.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by DawnTreader

Thought I would add a little discovery me made using iPad as our primary gps/chart plotter. When the temperature gets down to freezing, they must be connected to a charger at all times because the lithium battery will simply not hold a charge at all. Same with computers. Found out about this in the Falkland Islands when we dropped our chimney cap overboard, losing our heater. We ended using hot water bottles to gently heat our devices. We don't have any plans to change to MFD, but it is another tradeoff to consider.

Same thing happens at the other end of the spectrum. When its warm out and you have your ipad in direct sunlight it will overheat and shutdown! Not a good feature in your navigation electronics. I experienced this often enough to relegate my ipad to just planning and "following along" not primary device.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by conachair

Sounds like a mess.. why not just set the nav network to a free channel and keep nav gear on that channel. Sounds like you're complaining about microwaves, not wifi, which works really well for nav gear & sensors onboard

There simply aren't enough free channels. Only three: 1, 6, and 11. WiFi channels overlap so adjacent channel interference is as big a deal as cochannel interference. Some IoT devices (like the freezer I mentioned) are fixed on a channel. Again, when you are in a narrow channel (inlets, the ICW, certainly marinas) you have little control.



See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISM_band


One of the problems is intermodulation so you have more than just direct interference. An electrically noisy inverter or refrigeration compressor can mix with another source and land on the frequency for something you care about. Mixers can be anything from a semiconductor junction (e.g. LED) to a corrosion product, which we have in spades. I've seen terrestrial problems from chain link fences. Afloat we have plenty of corrosion junctions: rigging, life lines, ground loops (e.g. VHF return paths on coax shield and aluminum mast), and more. Cheap switching power supplies are a perennial problem.



The microwave anecdote was just funny, obvious, and easily fixed. "Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do this." "Don't do that." GOFO. Had it been my own boat and I actually used a microwave a little disassembly, some shielding, and better grounding would have sorted it, just as capacitors on compressor motors usually fix refrigeration compressors.



The real challenge is intermod. It's very tedious to track down even with a spectrum analyzer. Without it takes serious discipline to the scientific method and a lot of tedious multivariate data collection.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

There simply aren't enough free channels. Only three: 1, 6, and 11. WiFi channels overlap so adjacent channel interference is as big a deal as cochannel interference. .........

Ta for the info, every day a school day.
Anyway, don't have any of the problems guys with big expensive boats have Wifi works great for me, with openplotter & ESP's these days it's possible to make a sophisticated monitoring/logging/nav system and have it all beamed to a tablet of choice for the cost of a really good night out

As for desperatly needing a MFD at the wheel - anyone remember passage plans?

[Smokeys Kitchen]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Some tablets and phone shut down when exposed to sunlight to protect them from overheating. Not good for navigation if they are the only source. And they must be charged...

I actually had this happen to my iPad w/Navionics on it, twice this summer while were sailing. It wasn't unnerving, as we use an E80 as our primary tool, but did give me pause for thought about what I will use in the future when the E80 gets replaced.

Also - the iPad will not display our radar, and that is an essential tool for me.

The ability of the iPad (or any tablet device) to vary the scale very quickly for route planning and visibility is better by far than my E80, but I would not use any tablet in place of a robust MFD