New product NMEA2000 to Ethernet

[muttnik]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I wish I could do a TCP connection on my system, but unfortunately using the built in 0183 converter in the B&G Zeus I am limited to UDP.

Originally Posted by teppokurki

I didn't quite get what the problem here is - care to explain your setup in more detail?

Per Teppo's comment...gofree used to work by multicasting details of data servers on the network (I think they also did service discovery with bonjour but the gofree protocol was it's own json-in-multicast-udp thing). Gofree-aware applications would use those data to get the address of your plotter and then make a tcp connection to a tcp server on the plotter. It's several years since I coded up the gofree interface for kplex but that's how it *used* to work.

So unless, as I suspect I may be, completely misinterpreting or they've comepletly changed the way it worked, you should be able to get nmea-0183-over-tcp from your plotter.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by muttnik

Per Teppo's comment...gofree used to work by multicasting details of data servers on the network (I think they also did service discovery with bonjour but the gofree protocol was it's own json-in-multicast-udp thing). Gofree-aware applications would use those data to get the address of your plotter and then make a tcp connection to a tcp server on the plotter. It's several years since I coded up the gofree interface for kplex but that's how it *used* to work.

So unless, as I suspect I may be, completely misinterpreting or they've comepletly changed the way it worked, you should be able to get nmea-0183-over-tcp from your plotter.

I think you can get that from almost every plotter that has Ethernet. Some people seem to have problems with udp... I have not, not even when used with data links several thousand miles apart, let alone on a nice private LAN. IMHO, a UDP broadcast is better (more reliable) than a 4800bps NMEA0183 speaker

[muttnik]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

IMHO, a UDP broadcast is better (more reliable) than a 4800bps NMEA0183 speaker

- broadcast is for implementors who've never heard of multicast ;-). Srsly...it's such a bad plan it isn't part of IPv6. There is *no reason* you'd use broadcast instead of multicast except for compatibility with the first few dodgy nmea-to-ip devices which were not exactly elegantly programmed but turned into a de-facto non-standard (which of course is, actually, a compelling reason :-)
- how much of a good idea broadcast or multicast is depends on the datalink layer. Over ethernet it's fine. Over 802.11 not so much
- udp *unicast* over wireless is also fine because of unicast reliability at the datalink layer (which broadcast/multicast doesn't have).

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by muttnik

- broadcast is for implementors who've never heard of multicast ;-). Srsly...it's such a bad plan it isn't part of IPv6. There is *no reason* you'd use broadcast instead of multicast except for compatibility with the first few dodgy nmea-to-ip devices which were not exactly elegantly programmed but turned into a de-facto non-standard (which of course is, actually, a compelling reason :-)
- how much of a good idea broadcast or multicast is depends on the datalink layer. Over ethernet it's fine. Over 802.11 not so much
- udp *unicast* over wireless is also fine because of unicast reliability at the datalink layer (which broadcast/multicast doesn't have).

For discussion here on CF I consider broadcast and multicast equal and call it broadcast because that is what most readers understand.

The errors I detect on 802.11 are negligible; it’s good enough for apps that “follow you on the map”. I can make errors by using 2.4GHz while using the microwave etc. but on 5.8GHz it’s flawless.
We pumped hundreds of gigs of data over transatlantic fiber for years and the days we got an error we’re rare.

[muttnik]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

For discussion here on CF I consider broadcast and multicast equal and call it broadcast because that is what most readers understand.

The point I was trying to make was that over ethernet they aren't equal but broadcast is used by most manufacturers (including yacht devices apparently) simply because that's what others did and few people have tried to offer an alternative. OpenCPN has supported nmea-over-multicast for several years.

With something relatively unadopted but interesting like n2k-over-ip it would be a shame if sub-optimal choices became de-facto standards just because that's how the first implementors did it and no "proper" well thought out standard exists. But doubtless inevitable and there's an argument to say no standard is better than a non-free standard.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The errors I detect on 802.11 are negligible; it’s good enough for apps that “follow you on the map”. I can make errors by using 2.4GHz while using the microwave etc. but on 5.8GHz it’s flawless.
We pumped hundreds of gigs of data over transatlantic fiber for years and the days we got an error we’re rare.

For the latter point...the packet loss I was referring to is wireless broadcast/multicast specific. If you're talking about a transatlantic link...as you say it's fibre not wireless and I doubt you're talking broadcast.

To re-iterate, unicast udp over wireless no problemo because the reliability is dealt with at the layer below IP. The datalink reliability is needed because of the lossyness of the medium but in the absence of L2 multicast-to-unicast translation which you aren't going to get on consumer grade kit broadcast/multicast packet loss can be atrocious. I did a test with an old raspberry pi access point a few years back (questionable quality hardware compared to your router of course) and a macbook. I was losing more multicast packets than were getting through. As predicted, zero packet loss (at the IP level) with unicast. I don't have a microwave on my boat :-).

If anyone else has tested this, the results for various different hardware arrangements might be interesting

[muttnik]

Apologies for drifting this thread off topic. It looks an interesting product and I look forward to s/v Jedi's review.

[s/v Jedi]

Maybe you guys can help work out how to setup this:

- What sensors and displays to put in the always-on network segment

- What sensors and displays to put in the on-while-underway network segment

- How to create a backup network segment. I have multiple heading sensors, positioning, etc. What commercial products are available to harden it against lightning induced surges etc.

I’m trying to come up with a “best practice” for blue water cruisers.

[sailah]

Originally Posted by teppokurki

You can do all that with off the shelf hardware:
- a Raspberry Pi
- an N2K-USB adapterer or the YD stick in this thread
- an LTE stick

using
- Signal K server (to convert the data from N2K and write it into Influx)
- InfluxDb and Grafana (to store the data and draw pretty graphs)
- ZeroTier (to provide secure remote access over Internet to stuff running on the boat)

I'd imagine that would be less work than starting with an LTE module. Not quite plug and play, more like configure stuff to work together.

Then again you said you have somebody to do it for you...

(disclaimer: I am heavily involved with Signal K)

Interesting. I have a RPi, I don't think we use InfluxDb, we use Azure IoT and I have used Grafana but not really currently.

Seems there's a lot of converting and configuring and much relies on a Pi running.

I'm envisioning a much simpler plug n play solution that plugs into 2K network and send directly to cloud. Of course I'm simplifying greatly as I don't have the technical expertise to code this.

The costs to run the SIM are very inexpensive with Twilio and those roam globally.

Could the Signal K server run on an ARM processor like an STM32?

Seems something like the iKommunicate would be perfect but with LTE onboard.

[s/v Jedi]

I don’t know what is wrong with me but I forgot to bring the new router to the boat today. I did get to test the wifi gateway though and here you see it streaming 0183 data over a bidirectional tcp link to iSailor. I now get rudder angle (1 degree to port, lower right) and rotation (0.7 degrees/minute under heading) which were not available from the Vesper XB8000.

Good start

[ns423]

Temps were near freezing today (that's warm here) so I went down to the boat and fired up the Gateway to connect to the EDO Instruments App through 2.4GHz WiFi. It works well, the one shot shows the Raspberry Pi displaying OpenCPN on the salon TV and the iPad with the EDO app. I also had Pandora streaming through the same network on the iPad to the Bluetooth sound system on the boat. Really works great, I need to spend a little time and configure the Gateway's built in web gauges. Once I install something to monitor power usage I'll post the results. The Gateway is powered off the NEMA 2000 network, the router runs off a 5v USB adapter, TV is 12V and the Raspberry Pi runs off the TV's USB port.

[Tenedos]

This looks pretty neat. Is there a way to make this feed into a Signal K server? I like developing some custom apps so feeding into Signal K helps me. I currently use a PiCAN2 board to get the data in and it works but can see using something like this in the future.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I must add that we also have their wifi gateway and I intend to test bridging as well. There are two things to test: network segment only powered up while underway and network segment with backup sensors, normally turned off and hardened against lightning strike.

Hi Jedi,
That little router and the YD stuff is what I am looking for.
Would have 3 questions:
1) idea: want to use the netgear nighthawk m1 or 2 as mobile router with my 2nd Sim Card installed so I spare myself tethering with the cell, I just switch cell off and router with 2nd Sim on. That will have a much better reception and speeds then cell with the tethering and already creates a fast boat WiFi. When using that little router of yours I could connect it via LAN/plug into the Ethernet port of the M1/2 and use it to capture a local WiFi too and enlarge the total speed. From description M1/2 it says it balances the traffic between Ethernet port (connected to local wifi via your little router) and GSM data, so in location with poor speed on each, both combined should/can result in acceptable performance. 2nd the M1/2 is boat WiFi along the way while the little router is boat WiFi when ankered to fit your 2 segments if I understood it correctly. What do you think/does that work?
2) is there any difference in router+YD Ethernet dongle compared to the YD WiFi dongle regarding iPads and running NMEA apps like iSailor or are they fully redundant?
3) could you please explain your two segments/lightening strike setup for like non IT geeks like me? Especially how you separate and how you protect it in case of a strike. How does that work?

Thank you

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Hi Jedi,
That little router and the YD stuff is what I am looking for.
Would have 3 questions:
1) idea: want to use the netgear nighthawk m1 or 2 as mobile router with my 2nd Sim Card installed so I spare myself tethering with the cell, I just switch cell off and router with 2nd Sim on. That will have a much better reception and speeds then cell with the tethering and already creates a fast boat WiFi. When using that little router of yours I could connect it via LAN/plug into the Ethernet port of the M1/2 and use it to capture a local WiFi too and enlarge the total speed. From description M1/2 it says it balances the traffic between Ethernet port (connected to local wifi via your little router) and GSM data, so in location with poor speed on each, both combined should/can result in acceptable performance. 2nd the M1/2 is boat WiFi along the way while the little router is boat WiFi when ankered to fit your 2 segments if I understood it correctly. What do you think/does that work?
2) is there any difference in router+YD Ethernet dongle compared to the YD WiFi dongle regarding iPads and running NMEA apps like iSailor or are they fully redundant?
3) could you please explain your two segments/lightening strike setup for like non IT geeks like me? Especially how you separate and how you protect it in case of a strike. How does that work?

Thank you

I do not recommend the netgear nighthawk m1/m2. I would have bought that if I would In my opinion, the GL.iNet router is far superior. When you connect your cellphone or a lte modem or jet pack/mifi to that, it will be just as fast and you don’t have to play sim card dj. It’s simply a router that can do anything and this is because of it’s open source software.

The nmea2000-Ethernet gateway allows you to connect it to that same GL.iNet router so that all wifi is done by one access point. An Ethernet cable to the router is much more robust than a client wifi link.

When you have multiple nmea2000 segments, you can disconnect one and keep using the other one. This would allow you to save power at anchor, while protecting the disconnected sensors and devices from surges due to lightning strikes etc. A bridge can join those segments.

There are more techniques. Maretron sells power-T’s with two negative and two positive wires, each pair going to one leg of the T. You can install those in a drop cable and use a double pole switch to power a device down and protect it from a surge.
Another one is to use MOV’s (Metal Oxide Varistor) to suppress surges. I have not researched that yet but think it’s time to do that. Well designed nmea2000 devices should have that internally already, but price competition eliminates them because I did not find them where I looked.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I do not recommend the netgear nighthawk m1/m2. I would have bought that if I would In my opinion, the GL.iNet router is far superior. When you connect your cellphone or a lte modem or jet pack/mifi to that, it will be just as fast and you don’t have to play sim card dj. It’s simply a router that can do anything and this is because of it’s open source software.

The nmea2000-Ethernet gateway allows you to connect it to that same GL.iNet router so that all wifi is done by one access point. An Ethernet cable to the router is much more robust than a client wifi link.

When you have multiple nmea2000 segments, you can disconnect one and keep using the other one. This would allow you to save power at anchor, while protecting the disconnected sensors and devices from surges due to lightning strikes etc. A bridge can join those segments.

There are more techniques. Maretron sells power-T’s with two negative and two positive wires, each pair going to one leg of the T. You can install those in a drop cable and use a double pole switch to power a device down and protect it from a surge.
Another one is to use MOV’s (Metal Oxide Varistor) to suppress surges. I have not researched that yet but think it’s time to do that. Well designed nmea2000 devices should have that internally already, but price competition eliminates them because I did not find them where I looked.

Hi Jedi,
thanks for your answers.


the netgear is a Mimo Cat16(M1)/20(M2) LTE modem with 2 external antenna out and that is why I want it in first place. Due to a dozen reviews the M2 and M1 are the best LTE modem at the moment and an RV friend confirmed that. My primary internet source will be LTE as I have a real worldwide flat data (at 300GB per month they start asking due to contract, but not throtteling) and phone tarif (the german vodafone red+ business with world flat option with 2 Sim cards), so no playing with free wifi unless there is no LTE/GSM or its fast wifi.

I can still use the GLI-Inet (which has no LTE modem) connected to M1/2 to act as access point for all as you suggest, but that would be up to performance tests who is better access point M1/2 or GiNet in real life.


Just thought that combined internet source GInet connected to slow free wifi and M1/2 connected to slow LTE/GSM balancing the load between Wifi via Ethernet input from GiNet and LTE via modem M1/2 could solve some speed problems in real remote areas.

[s/v Jedi]

Are you doing this for 5G? For a boat? The maximum 5G range is 1,000 feet, totally unusable aboard boats anchored out.

I highly doubt that the Netgear will outperform my iPhone for a 4G LTE link. If long range is an issue, then all the jetpacks, mifi’s etc. support external antennas that outperform the Netgear M2 antennas (I bet it has external antenna connectors too). Even the old ones from MyIslandWifi in the Bahamas offer excellent throughput and the limits are upstream, never in your modem.

I have a Netgear Nighthawk router (not the mobile) and it’s firmware is horrible. Nothing like the neat and tight OpenWRT.

With OpenWRT, sticking in an LTE modem, or tethering a phone/jetpack/mifi works great and gives so much flexibility by allowing use of a local provider’s gadget.

Load balancing is a path of hurt as well. I have thrown hundreds of thousands of Euros at it (I owned an Internet ISP) and it never performed like promised.

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Hi Jedi,
thanks for your answers.


the netgear is a Mimo Cat16(M1)/20(M2) LTE modem with 2 external antenna out and that is why I want it in first place. Due to a dozen reviews the M2 and M1 are the best LTE modem at the moment and an RV friend confirmed that. My primary internet source will be LTE as I have a real worldwide flat data (at 300GB per month they start asking due to contract, but not throtteling) and phone tarif (the german vodafone red+ business with world flat option with 2 Sim cards), so no playing with free wifi unless there is no LTE/GSM or its fast wifi.

I can still use the GLI-Inet (which has no LTE modem) connected to M1/2 to act as access point for all as you suggest, but that would be up to performance tests who is better access point M1/2 or GiNet in real life.


Just thought that combined internet source GInet connected to slow free wifi and M1/2 connected to slow LTE/GSM balancing the load between Wifi via Ethernet input from GiNet and LTE via modem M1/2 could solve some speed problems in real remote areas.