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Ted and Relinda · 31-05-2015, 13:47

OK, Relinda and I are new to SSB. in fact its not installed yet (M710&AT120 in the mail). Another thread is providing lots of info and will require time to research and digest. Fortunately, I have a buddy in the communications field I will beat on a lot. However the one question that we have is does anyone use the ssb/email/internet connections for banking?? Currently we do almost all banking and bill pay on line. Simple enough to do with cell phones on land but will it work on the water with the SSB and needed components at a cost effective rate??? What additional equipment would be needed or would hookup to laptop work. This may be simple stuff to a lot of you, but we have no experience and would like some help.
Expect more stupid questions to follow.
Ted.

belizesailor · 31-05-2015, 14:01

Short answer, No.

The bandwidth via PACTOR or similar solutions is just too limited to be practical to use for Internet access. Only practical for text only emails, small GRIB files, and similar small transmissions.

AllanR · 01-06-2015, 06:12

Hi Ted,

The ICOM M710 is a great radio. Tough, durable and reliable. I own five of them as I provide the SailMail hub that covers SE Asia, the NW Pacific and eastern/northern Indian Ocean. My M710 radios here are answering calls 24/7 and transferring emails, weather info, METAREA forecasts, GRIB charts, YOTREPS position reports etc that are some of the free services included with a membership of the not-for-profit SailMail Association.

But, I hate to be a bearer of bad news. The M710 is no longer recommended by most maritime authorities and yachting associations around the world. DSC capable HF/SSB radio technology has superseded the M710 for regular maritime voice services. That's why you can't see the M710 offered as a marine radio on ICOM's USA website. Or on their UK, European and Australian websites. It's old technology which, at sea, locks you out of direct communication with SOLAS vessels (ie: big ships. They are only required to maintain a DSC watch, not a voice watch), and makes it difficult - or in many cases impossible - to contact MRCCs in many parts of the world (eg: around SE Asia), because they too are only monitoring for DSC calls. Almost everyone hates the noise of an open channel HF/SSB radio.

DSC has revolutionized maritime HF/SSB radio operations and significantly improved it's use for general and emergency communications; because it's convenient for all vessels - yachts included - to maintain a 24/7 DSC watch. The radio speaker is muted and the radio does the work of monitoring for calls, not the crew.

It is no longer necessary to turn off the radio, or turn down the volume, so calls for advise or help are not heard. Or to revert to daily skeds between yachts in a race, rally or cruise-in-company fleet.

Around the USA the Coast Guard still provides monitoring of open voice calling/distress frequencies, but DSC calling is far more likely to make contact; with the Coast Guard ashore or with other nearby vessels also maintaining a 24/7 DSC (only) watch.

There are some great resources to help people correctly operate and gain best advantage from the ICOM M802(DSC) radio available in the USA, including on this CF and also at www.made-simplefor-cruising.com .

Perhaps you have some specific purpose in mind that suits the M710, but if it was me, I'd be sending it back to get the M802(DSC) model. The M710 is like buying a new PC with Windows XP and a 386 processor. Dependable, but not up to speed with current standards and practices at sea. Like the M710, the M802(DSC) can also link with a Pactor controller for email, weather data etc via a SailMail Association membership. And it can do a lot more too.

Best wishes

Allan

Ted and Relinda · 01-06-2015, 12:38

Thanks for the info Allan. I just bought from private sell so no return. However, this being my first I will consider it as my entry level and as need arises, may upgrade to an 802..unless you need another 710..

btrayfors · 01-06-2015, 13:00

With respect, seems like Allan has climbed aboard John's DSC bandwagon!

Yes, DSC is helpful and does all the stuff he writes about.

HOWEVER, his recent posts and John's many posts lead one to believe that the 710 and other non-DSC transceivers are "old technology" and somehow flawed because they don't have DSC capability. Nearly worthless, the ill-informed reader is to believe.

That's simply NOT TRUE. HF/SSB radios without DSC are still very useful and many, many cruising boats are happily using them every day.

Here in the U.S. the USCG monitors several HF emergency frequencies 24/7. The commercial ship's telephone stations, WLO in Mobile AL and KLB near Seattle WA monitor several HF frequencies 24/7. They also provide weather broadcasts and ship call lists periodically during the day. You don't need a DSC radio to call the "marine operator" or make a telephone call thru these stations.

There are a number of marine SSB nets which operate daily, and which are very active. You don't need a DSC radio to tune into or participate in these.

Pactor modems work very well with the M710 and other HF rigs. You can send/receive emails from anyplace in the world (and you could even send a distress message this way). Again, no DSC radio is needed.

Most marine transceivers are capable of transmitting on the amateur radio bands (the ham bands). There is activity over wide swaths of ocean almost 24 hours a day on 14300 kHz. Somebody somewhere will hear you, as hundreds of ham stations are listening at any given time. The Coast Guard often comes up on 14300 when they know there's an emergency -- when they do, their very powerful transmitters and antennas sound like the voice of god!

NO, Allan, no disrespect intended. But I've been deeply involved in marine communications for over 50 years and in numerous locations around the world, and I believe that the "imperative" of DSC has been overstated.

Useful? Yes.

Mandatory? Certainly not.

Bill
WA6CCA

ka4wja · 01-06-2015, 21:01

Ted and Relinda,
1) I've got some good info for you!!
See LOTS of details below...

2) If you can overlook any boasting here, there is one thread where you will find almost all the info / links you could ever need for learning about HF-SSB Radio, Offshore Weather, safety communications, etc. etc...
It is more of a reference, not much of a discussion....but LOTS of info...

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tc-133496.html

3) Just so there's no misunderstanding...while I am a strident proponent of HF-DSC....this does NOT make the M-710 a flawed radio, nor does it make it useless!!
And, for those within HF-SSB radio range of USCG HF stations, WLO, etc....and/or those looking for communicating with "cruising nets", casual ham radio operations, etc. the M-710 is a good low-cost choice...

Quote:

Originally Posted by btrayfors

With respect, seems like Allan has climbed aboard John's DSC bandwagon!

Yes, DSC is helpful and does all the stuff he writes about.

Again, I am a proponent of HF-DSC, but Bill is correct here!!

4) Now, onto your questions....
See some specifics in red....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted and Relinda

OK, Relinda and I are new to SSB. in fact its not installed yet (M710&AT120 in the mail).
Thank you for letting us know your radio....
But, if you can also tell us WHERE you are planning on cruising, and a bit more of what else you have equipped your boat with (or are planning on equipping her with), we can help you a LOT more!!

Another thread is providing lots of info and will require time to research and digest.
Not exactly sure what thread you're referring to, but if it is the one about "USB and the M-710", there are MUCH better threads with MUCH better and easier to understand info in them, as well as videos that will help...
See the info below...

Fortunately, I have a buddy in the communications field I will beat on a lot.
Ted, please do not think I'm being rude at all....I'm NOT...
But, understand that him being "in the communications field" might mean nothing at all, and could possibly even lead you down some wrong paths...

It is HF Radio experience, especially HF radio experience at sea, that is what would be helpful....
Please remember that HF communications is unlike EVERY OTHER means of communications in the world these days, and unless your buddy has experience in HF communications, you will probably get considerably more assistance here in this forum (and the SSCA Disc Boards) than you will from him...

(again, not trying to insult your buddy....just trying to keep you from going down some wrong paths...)

However the one question that we have is does anyone use the ssb/email/internet connections for banking?? Currently we do almost all banking and bill pay on line. Simple enough to do with cell phones on land but will it work on the water with the SSB and needed components at a cost effective rate???
While you can use HF radio (typically with an external PACTOR modem) to send/receive e-mails, the data rates are VERY slow, and actual "internet connections" are NOT possible!!
(although PACTOR IV is quite impressive, with typical speeds exceeding 4 - 6kb....PACTOR III is going to be only 2.4kb typically....compared to "dial-up" speeds of 56kb, and even the slowest DSL speeds of 512kb....you can see that HF radio will not get you usable "internet access"...and even if it could, you'd get bored waiting for a page to load...

)

So, the answer is NO....
For internet access, you will want to use Wi-Fi and/or cellular systems when in port, at anchor, and along the coasts....
(if you require internet when well offshore and/or in far remote areas....it will cost you a LOT!!! and that's a whole 'nother discussion!)

What additional equipment would be needed or would hookup to laptop work. This may be simple stuff to a lot of you, but we have no experience and would like some help.
Use a good quality external Wi-Fi system and/or an external cellular/3G/4G antenna/system, for excellent internet access at anchor and along coastal areas of MANY locations these days....in the Bahamas BATELCO data service is reasonable and there is remarkably good coverage...
Those new to cruising are many times surprised by this, but in many developing parts of the world, where there is/was little hi-tech communications infrastructure, the "wireless industry" came in gang-busters (many times paid handsomely by the governments)....

Expect more stupid questions to follow.
Ted, no stupid questions here!!
As long as you read all the info posted, etc. you will learn a lot!!
Ted.

ka4wja · 03-06-2015, 09:33

Duh!

I forgot to send one direct link to a GREAT discussion, titled: "Tips for using an HF-SSB Radio (mostly for newcomers)", which was based on a guy new to HF radio who had an Icom M-710....

Have a look here...
Tips for using an HF-SSB Radio (mostly for newcomers)

Fair winds...

John

AllanR · 05-06-2015, 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by btrayfors

With respect, seems like Allan has climbed aboard John's DSC bandwagon!

Yes, DSC is helpful and does all the stuff he writes about.

HOWEVER, his recent posts and John's many posts lead one to believe that the 710 and other non-DSC transceivers are "old technology" and somehow flawed because they don't have DSC capability. Nearly worthless, the ill-informed reader is to believe.

That's simply NOT TRUE. HF/SSB radios without DSC are still very useful and many, many cruising boats are happily using them every day.

Here in the U.S. the USCG monitors several HF emergency frequencies 24/7. The commercial ship's telephone stations, WLO in Mobile AL and KLB near Seattle WA monitor several HF frequencies 24/7. They also provide weather broadcasts and ship call lists periodically during the day. You don't need a DSC radio to call the "marine operator" or make a telephone call thru these stations.

There are a number of marine SSB nets which operate daily, and which are very active. You don't need a DSC radio to tune into or participate in these.

Pactor modems work very well with the M710 and other HF rigs. You can send/receive emails from anyplace in the world (and you could even send a distress message this way). Again, no DSC radio is needed.

Most marine transceivers are capable of transmitting on the amateur radio bands (the ham bands). There is activity over wide swaths of ocean almost 24 hours a day on 14300 kHz. Somebody somewhere will hear you, as hundreds of ham stations are listening at any given time. The Coast Guard often comes up on 14300 when they know there's an emergency -- when they do, their very powerful transmitters and antennas sound like the voice of god!

NO, Allan, no disrespect intended. But I've been deeply involved in marine communications for over 50 years and in numerous locations around the world, and I believe that the "imperative" of DSC has been overstated.

Useful? Yes.

Mandatory? Certainly not.

Bill
WA6CCA

Hi Bill,

I agree that the M710 certainly has a lot of very useful life in it for a lot of very important purposes, and as I mentioned in my earlier post, I own five.
But without Selective Calling, the M710 is seriously hampered as a radio to facilitate an always on communication network for small-craft, and to link small-craft crews into the well established and existing GMDSS/DSC network that helps protect big ship crews.

The M710 is already redundant in big ships, which must operate a GMDSS/DSC radio which can maintain a quiet 24/7 watch without the crew being tempted to turn down the volume or switch off the radio once they clear port and officials are not around to check. A SOLAS vessel with an M710 fitted instead of a GMDSS/DSC radio cannot get it's radio certificate and is not permitted to take it's crew or cargo to sea. The people who make decisions about these matters have seen the important – life-saving – benefits of DSC and acted upon this evidence, so it's convenient for all those big ship crews to maintain a 24/7 watch for calls from other nearby vessels. Yacht crews can tap into this always on, 24/7 watch, by big ships, just by fitting a DSC capable radio.

I also agree that HAMs have provided a great service to yacht crews over many years and I hope that will continue while yachts still carry non DSC radios. However, to be very honest, my picture of ideal is dedicated and committed HAM net operators equipped with a DSC capable marine radio. That would be a powerful combination.

With regard to being mandatory, a DSC capable HF/SSB radio is mandatory for all Royal Hong Kong Yacht Club events beyond the range of coastal VHF (with DSC) services. Without a functional DSC HF/SSB radio you cannot enter the race. And Yachting Australia - in its latest Special Regulations, "for racing and recommended for cruising" - requires all new and replacement HF/SSB radio installations to be DSC capable. We expect that in the following Special Regulations period - to begin June 2017 - DSC HF/SSB radios will be mandatory for events beyond VHF (with DSC) coastal services; like RHKYC. Maritime authorities in Australia, the UK, Europe and others will not license a HF/SSB radio for small-craft use unless it is DSC capable.

In the UK, it has not been mandatory for yachts to have a HF/SSB radio when operating beyond their coastal VHF (with DSC) services. That's probably because MRCC Falmouth does not own a HF/SSB radio, and because the UK's S&R responsibility area is quite small, with VHF and MF sufficient for most area. MRCC Falmouth's only option when yacht owners ask about comms beyond their VHF service is to say get a satphone to phone them. That's OK when yachts are still within range of their excellent RNLI lifeboats etc. But as the Chiki Rafiki demonstrated, it does not necessarily work elsewhere. If UK and Europe registered yachts do fit a HF/SSB radio, it is mandatory to fit one with DSC.

While there are strong supporters of DSC for recreational marine HF/SSB radios - eg retired US Navy Commander and committed cruiser, Terry Sparks - www.made-simplefor-cruisers.com - what we see on this side of the world is a lot of USA cruisers in trouble because they do not have DSC capable radios and they cannot contact MRCCs or big ships when they need to.

I've written a longer document regarding why I support the use of DSC for marine HF/SSB and VHF comms and it can be seen here:

www.bruneibay.net/bbradio/documents/CF-DSCforHF-SSB

The short version is like this:

I have not recently climbed aboard John's DSC bandwagon, I've been on the Selective Calling bandwagon since the late 1970s, when I first bought HF/SSB radios for the adventure education centre I was working at in Australia. I was fortunate to have a HAM friend show me how HF radio could help us manage operations, reduce costs and increase safety when conducting programmes in isolated areas. But the problem was the noisy radio, scanning through the 6 frequencies in the centre of the operations rooms, or in an isolated basecamp or 4WD. It would drive everyone crazy and sure to be the point that caused the entire concept of radio communications to fail completely. It was inevitable the volume would be turned down or the radio turned off – “just for a few minutes during a briefing” – and never reset or tuned on again. It was the Achilles heel of a great technology. The availability of Selective Calling in commercial HF/SSB radios solved the problem. These HF/SSB radios with SelCall provided excellent value communications for this not-for-profit organisation for more than twenty years of remote site operations.

Another magical feature of Selective Calling systems in HF/SSB, VHF and UHF CB radios is the revertive tone. When the called radio receives its SelCall ID, it opens it's speaker – so the subsequent voice call can be heard – and rings to attract atention. It also transmits a beep tone. This beep confirms to the caller that contact has been made with the desired radio. This eliminates many of the uncertainties with radio use – Is the other radio turned on? Is it in range? Have I used the right frequency? Is my radio working properly? The revertive tone answers all these questions. The only remaining question is whether someone is nearby to hear the call and respond; or is away from the radio and/or busy.

In marine radio in Australia, SelCall was used to contact coast radio stations - and receive a confidence building revertive tone - since the late 1970s till the arrival of GMDSS in 1999. We all learnt that SelCall precipitated a far quicker and more dependable response than simply calling by voice. It was a lot easier for the operators too. Many Australian yachts and commercial small-craft had marine radios such as the Codan 9390, with SelCall. In a more advanced form it was used to connect with the automated telephone interconnect system available on certain frequencies, to directly dial the required shore or mobile phone number from the yacht.

I admit to being a convert to Selective Calling (DSC or SelCall) for almost 40 years. I've learnt how it makes radios for more people friendly, helps it work for busy people (eg: operating a short-handed yacht, driving a vehicle and running a business), and it overcomes the human instinct to turn off the radio or turn down the noise of the radio; especially the HF/SSB radio scanning through it's frequencies. In the Australian land and marine services, SelCall was a key factor in creating the system effectiveness and reliability, for boat to boat, vehicle to vehicle or boat to vehicle calling, for contacting a coast station, and for emergency situations. Because people could leave the (silent) radio switched on and checking for incoming calls, 24/7. It really helped make HF/SSB radio a valuable communications resource that addressed regular people's day to day communication needs in isolated locations. And it still does.

Without DSC, hands up all the cruisers who put the safety and well-being of fellow cruisers above their own convenience, tranquility and sanity, by maintaining a 24/7 scanning watch on the open voice distress frequencies, with the volume turned up to ensure they can hear any calls from the cockpit, when underway and while in a peaceful anchorage.

If the Chiki Rafiki incident is any measure, the answer must be none. Hands up again all the cruisers who – if nearby to Chiki Rafiki – would have maintained their open speaker HF/SSB radios with the speaker turned up loud enough to hear a voice call for assistance from Chiki Rafiki above the noise of waves, wind, flapping sails, yelling crew and slamming boat at that time. The DSC option really is far more practical.

Just over a hundred years ago, more than 1500 passengers on the Titanic learnt the hard way that switching off the radio is deadly. Radio operators on RMS Titanic and the nearby SS Californian – within sight and stopped for the night amongst the icebergs – had been communicating earlier that evening, but the SS Californian operator switched off the ship's radio ten minutes before the Titanic hit the iceberg and went to bed. Perhaps they had planned to talk again in the morning, but it took the Titanic less than 2.5 hours to be gone, with over 1500 people left dying in the ice cold, calm seas. All done, dead and finished before the next radio sked. A significant safety related outcome of the Titanic enquiries was that “radio equipment on passenger ships was manned around the clock” (Wikipedia)

Yachts and other small-craft do not have the space or finance to assign a couple of crew to maintain a 24/7 listening watch on the HF/SSB voice distress frequencies. But technology has handed us their replacement, the electronics in a DSC capable HF/SSB radio. These computer chips are happy to spend all day every day listening for calls, quietly, while we enjoy the contrasting challenge and tranquility of sailing and cruising. These radio chips don't need a bunk, food, salary, vacations, days off or air flights. They just need access to the backstay and some electricity.

Many present day yacht crews are still not aware of their importance as a resource to help other mariners, and therefore the importance of keeping their radio switched on 24/7 – at sea and at anchor – to sustain a mutual support network; for advice, assistance and emergencies. Nearby yachts could have helped the Titanic passengers, and may have been able to help the Chiki Rafiki crew - either before the inversion or afterwards – to intercept the PLB in the water – but were not contactable by either Chiki Rafiki (no HF/SSB radio?) or the US Coast Guard, or any HAM operators, because – like the SS Californian – their HF/SSB radios were apparently turned off.

Australia's MRCC has been stating the most effective answer for emergency assistance clearly and repeatedly on successive versions of their website for many years, because – like many MRCCs, yacht clubs and yachting associations in this bigger, empty side of the world – they recognised years ago what the MAIB report of the Chiki Rafiki incident has emphasized again, that expecting someone on a distant shore to sort out an emergency is not reliable, and not prompt. "While satellites and satellite-compatible distress beacons have significantly improved the effectiveness of SAR operations, the system is not a substitute for carrying appropriate marine or aviation radio ... Depending on the circumstances, your initial distress alert should still be made by radio if possible. You should activate your distress beacon only if contact cannot be made by any other means or when told to do so by a rescue authority .... In the event of an emergency, communication should first be attempted with others close by using radios .... The basic concept of the Global Maritime Distress and Safety System (GMDSS) is that search and rescue authorities ashore, as well as shipping in the immediate vicinity of a ship in distress, will be rapidly alerted to a distress incident so they can assist in a coordinated search and rescue operation with the minimum of delay." (AMSA website)

A marine HF/SSB radio has the broadcast style communications medium required to make direct contact with any other nearby vessels; without needing to know who is there or to know their satphone number. DSC in all radios ensures a much higher probability of nearby vessels having their radios switched on and maintaining a 24/7 watch for calls from anyone else. MRCC Australia knows this is a superior combination that works, because the maritime radio service in Australia has been using Selective Calling in HF/SSB radios since the 1970s. Its efficacy is well proven; over and over again.

Like the SelCall I have used for 40 years – which is still widely used in the Land Mobile service in Australia – Selective Calling for marine radios makes it workable for everyone to keep their radio on, so the mutual support and emergency assistance benefits of yacht crews helping other yacht crews can be achieved. When the radio is turned off - eg: between skeds - that yacht, it's equipment and it's resourceful crew cannot know their help is needed by another nearby yacht crew with a problem, or any other nearby mariners; including passengers on the next Titanic. Whether the call for assistance is coming direct from the concerned crew on another vessel, or from an MRCC looking for nearby vessels to assist, the radio needs to be turned on. It really is that simple. History proves it over and over. DSC makes it practical to do so.

I hope this is useful and informative for Ted and Relinda, and any other "newbies" contemplating their first HF/SSB radio. And especially for cruisers planning passages onto this side of the world, or into any regions where prompt response S&R services are not available.

AllanR · 07-06-2015, 21:07

Sorry, the link (in the above post) to the larger document is not working. Try this link to a page on my website and scroll to the bottom to see numerous links to documents related to this topic, including the larger document title CF-DSCforHF-SSB.pdf

http://www.bruneibay.net/bbradio/bbrHFSSBcruising.htm

In case it is also useful, here is a link to my posts on the Ocean Cruising Club forum regarding the Chiki Rafiki:

OCC Forum :: Topic: Chiki Rafiki Report - Implications for cruisers (1/1)

And the comment from Terry Sparks (retired US Navy Commander, active cruiser, HAM) who publishes books and gives lectures on cruising and HF/SSB radio with DSC:

"Hi Alan,

Interesting stuff. I have had concerns about my boat for the same reasons. The good news is the keel is part of the hull and not a bolt on. But no access to anything below the deck or overhead.

I tell people to leave their radio in DSC watch. Maybe a few do, but most do not. I do not know how to drive it home. I tell them the current the M802 draws is approximately the same as leaving a 12V light bulb on, <2A. The response to that is good, but the radios are not on.

I guess I need to tell more sinking stories in my presentations?

Kind Regards

Terry Sparks"

www.made-simplefor-cruising.com

And here are some incidents with contrasting outcomes. Always on radio comms does make a difference to getting nearby support from like-minded yacht crews:

www.sail-world.com/World-ARC-Rally-yacht-saved-by-quick-acting-fellow-rally-participants/99644 "A VHF Pan Pan call brought eleven fellow participants to the boat within minutes ... two rally friends volunteered to sail onboard with Dave and Magali, and another seven World ARC boats shadowed them on the passage to Pago Pago."

www.sail-world.com/Cruising/international/World-ARC-Rally---Crew-of-yacht-Ciao-safely-evacuated/102334 "The intra-yacht SSB radio net also enabled swift communication between all rally boats on the passage."

It's worth remembering - as demonstrated by this Chiki Rafiki incident and emphasized by the MAIB investigation report - that the excellent S&R services available around the UK, Europe and parts of North America, are abnormal. They do not exist in most parts of the world, especially not in the lower-cost, environmentally intact get-away-from-it-all places many people like to cruise; including most of Australia's coastline, most of SE Asia and many areas in the Pacific and Indian Oceans. Limited search and rescue capabilities, in combination with local practices can mean that a satphone call to alert a distant MRCC has little effect:

www.sail-world..com/Hopes-fade-as-searchers-fail-to-find-shipwrecked-Australian-sailors/98741

www.sail-world.com/Sabbath-laws-and--who-will-pay--hampers-search-for-missing-sailors/98618

But when other small-craft operators, who understand about the needs of fellow mariners, can hear the call for help on the radio, they can make a difference:

www.sail-world.com/SOS-unheeded---abandoned-cruising-sailors-rescued-by-divers/102481

Yachties need to look out for each other. Travelling in loose company with other yachts or in rallies, with everyone linked by always-on VHF and HF/SSB radios - with DSC to make it feasible - can make a difference.

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