North Up or Heading Up?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by team karst

Not that this applies; but, what to F16 pilots use for high speed, low level-flight in the mountains?

Military pilots use North up.


Civilian pilots argue about it like we do


I would personally probably want track up for "high speed low level flight in the mountains", since all you care about there is immediate orientation to the terrain, so instant relating of the chart to what you see visually would be more important than the stuff you lose by going to track up. That would be an exceptional case. Maybe a real military flight will chime in and correct anything I've said wrong, but I think they are nevertheless required to use North up

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Military pilots use North up.


Civilian pilots argue about it like we do


I would personally probably want track up for "high speed low level flight in the mountains", since all you care about there is immediate orientation to the terrain, so instant relating of the chart to what you see visually would be more important than the stuff you lose by going to track up. That would be an exceptional case. Maybe a real military flight will chime in and correct anything I've said wrong, but I think they are nevertheless required to use North up

I used to fly F16’s at high speed and low level in the mountains on a pretty regular basis and we would enter all the waypoints along the low level route before takeoff and then they’d automatically sequence as each one was passed so we always had steering to the next waypoint. But our primary means of low level navigation was by dead reckoning and referring to charts we prepared by plotting the route on them and then cutting the chart into manageably sized pages oriented course up and put together with rings so we could easily flip from one segment to the next and (quickly!) glance down at the chart and compare it to what we were seeing outside. So back then we looked at low level routes from a course up perspective, but it’s been a long time and they may well be doing it differently now. I can’t imagine flying a low level route in anything but course up since once you’re out there flying it you don’t care where north is relative to your course but you do care very much about staying oriented to your surroundings and if you look down for more than a split second you’re likely to become part of the landscape so you want to keep staying oriented as simple as possible. That means course up. I also briefly flew KC-135’s and in those we had a dedicated navigator who plotted our course and navigated on a north up paper chart. But the USAF got rid of KC135 navigators and they now use a moving map display like on our MFD’s. I can’t say whether they use north or course up but I can definitively say that airlines use course up. On International routes, before takeoff we’d enter the whole route into the nav computer and then check it against the chart in north up mode but then switch back to course up mode before pushback and leave it there for the whole flight. In over 40 years of military and airline flying I never saw or even heard of anyone using north up on a chart plotter while in flight.

But jets and sailboats are quite different animals!

On my boat I much prefer course up all the time except when I’m plotting the course on my iPad the night before departure. For that process I prefer north up because it helps me visualize the big picture of where I plan to go the next day, but once it’s time to get underway I want my iPad and chartplotter aligned to what I’m seeing as I look towards the bow of my boat. At that point I’m less concerned with the whole route than I am with the orientation of hazards along the particular leg I’m on at that time. I also think it makes it much more intuitive for others aboard my boat to stay oriented where we are in relation to various hazards if the view they see with their eyes corresponds to what they see on the MFD. But since we are moving so slowly on our boats, I can understand why some who have been long accustomed to always keeping their paper charts north up feel more comfortable sticking to their old habits while using a chartplotter. I’m pretty old so that’s how I started out too but now I think course up makes much more sense. My “conversion” was probably hastened by my flying experience where we always used course up.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by StuM

You haven't answred the important question:
"WHy is it obvious that it's a south cardinal just from its position relative to you and your heading?"

My point wasn’t about the exact cardinal mark ahead. In real life , while sailing in any direction , I can meet any cardinal mark. Having a plotter in north up changes nothing,

This was my point , a north up plotter doesn’t add anything to cardinal mark determination , irrespective of my plotter , I know the direction I’m travelling and the chart plotter will identify the type of cardinal as will looking out the window.

It’s entirely personal preference , I know several sailors who orient paper charts with the course up, rather then north. Certainly my wife always swivels the chart so that it’s course up. It allows her to easily identify objects in relation to the boats natural orientation.

[Rumrace]

OH my gosh. We are in transition from paper to digital. Of course the most important view is your heading. Radar, plotter, released crow. Thataway.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

OH my gosh. We are in transition from paper to digital. Of course the most important view is your heading. Radar, plotter, released crow. Thataway.

Agreed , taken in summation , course /heading up offers the best option , objects on the plotter are orientated normally to the boat , modern systems can compute vectors to show other vessels true speed and direction and you can “ swivel “ your paper charts to match. It promotes better awareness , is unlikely to cause confusion when just glanced at and requires little reasoning to correlate with what you see “ out the window “ and the plotter.

I suspect it’s used far more then north up.

[boatman61]

What's to correlate.???
If I'm moving left or right across the screen (E-W) or up or down (N-S) things are still fore, aft or port, stbd in relation to my heading.. North up is a doddle, just can't see how anyone can find it confusing.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

a north up plotter doesn’t add anything to cardinal mark determination ,

Except plainly indicate where the danger is, without ambiguity.

[GordMay]

I was very surprised to read:

“RECOMMENDATION ON ELECTRONIC CHART DISPLAY AND INFORMATION SYSTEM FOR INLAND NAVIGATION (INLAND ECDIS)”

... 4.3 Image Positioning and Orientation
(a) In Information Mode all kinds of chart orientation are allowed (see Ch. 5.1)
(b) In Navigation Mode the chart shall be automatically positioned and oriented in the relative motion, head-up orientation with the own ship’s position in the screen centre or off-centred (see Ch. 5.2)

.5 Display of Radar Information
(a) In Navigation Mode the radar image shall have the highest display priority and it is only allowed to be presented in the relative motion, head-up mode. If the system is also type approved for maritime ECDIS, true motion and north-up mode may be implemented. If such a system is used in true motion and/or north-up mode on European inland waterways, it is considered to be working in Information Mode...

Here ➥ https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/tran...SC3-156r1e.pdf

Information Mode is intended to be used for information only and not for navigation.

In Navigation Mode, the Integrated Display shall only be presented in the head-up orientation. Other orientations are permitted in systems with an additional maritime ECDIS type approval. If such a system is used in true motion and/or north-up mode on European inland waterways, it is considered to be working in Information Mode.


See also [somewhat conflicting?]:
"The Electronic Chart Display and Information System (ECDIS): An Operational Handbook” ~ by Adam Weintrit
Page 353 ➥ https://books.google.ca/books?id=ajc...g%20up&f=false

[rslifkin]

If radar is displayed separately from charts, I can understand why they'd want it in head-up. That's the fastest mode for correlating what you can see out the windows to what's on the radar screen, therefore most useful for quick radar checks in confined waters.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Except plainly indicate where the danger is, without ambiguity.

How so , the cardinal mark is marked according and every one knows the direction they are sailing , I find this north up debate bizarre

[boatman61]

No more bizzare than Heading Up...

[CyKlop]

I prefer north up for several reasons…

1. I don’t like having my screen constantly skewing on me.
2. (Really minor) less power consumption
3. I can instantly tell, without mental gyrations where “south east of…” is even if I’m sailing a 220 course.
4. Matches the orientation of the charts I studied before setting out. You do study the charts before you go, right?

As for sailing in narrow waters, the predictive course lead on the screen tells me that just fine.

[skenn_ie]

Originally Posted by svfinlandia

I agree. I generally use heading up because I like to see where I’m going. 😐
I have no idea why manufacturers make their chart plotters wide screen instead of vertical. It makes no sense to me.

Al, S/V Finlandia

With a PC based one, you can have it "portrait"

[skenn_ie]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Except plainly indicate where the danger is, without ambiguity.

If you have a plotter, the hazard to the left, is also to Port. No mental gymnastics required. Points of the compass are almost irrelevant, esp in confined spaces.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by CyKlop

I prefer north up for several reasons…

1. I don’t like having my screen constantly skewing on me.
2. (Really minor) less power consumption
3. I can instantly tell, without mental gyrations where “south east of…” is even if I’m sailing a 220 course.
4. Matches the orientation of the charts I studied before setting out. You do study the charts before you go, right?

As for sailing in narrow waters, the predictive course lead on the screen tells me that just fine.

I think your number one reason is valid (to each their own) but the other three seem pretty unimportant.

The difference in power consumption is so small as to be immeasurable.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the times someone has come on the radio to tell me they were southeast of a particular point, but 24/7/365 I need to instantly be aware of hazards in relation to the direction my boat is currently pointed or is moving. So, if you think it takes "mental gyrations" to figure out where a compass direction is when you're not in north up mode, you must also think it takes similar gyrations to discern hazards relative to your bow when in north up mode. I personally don't think the "mental gyrations" are particularly difficult in either case because operating in course up mode, I can quickly glance at my compass to remind myself where southeast is if I were to hear such a call on the radio, and if I'm in north up mode I can look at the COG prediction arrow to remind myself in what direction Im moving on the chart. But it's a bit easier if the chart on my MFD is aligned with where my bow is pointing. Also if another crew member or passenger looks at the MFD in course up, what they see will intuitively make sense to them because it will match what they see around us, but in north up, it will take a bit of explaining so they understand that they first have to find the little boat on the chart, which might be pointing in any direction, and then note which way it's pointing, and then match up the direction the little boat it pointing to what they are seeing around us and once they do that, extrapolate where the hazards are relative to the direction we are moving or pointing.

I do study the charts before setting out and plot my intended route in north up mode, and then zoom in before reviewing the whole route so, I know I didn't inadvertently plan to sail over some rocks that don't show up on the big chart. That's planning, but when it comes time to actually sail that route and navigate I find it much more intuitive to operate in course up. Since I DID study the chart during the planning process, I'm confident that I'll remain clear of hazards and I also am confident that I'll end up where I intend to without constantly monitoring my compass direction. Different priorities when planning versus navigating. As long as I stay close to my planned route, it will lead me to where I want to go so that's my focus, just staying at least close to on my planned route and course up is the most intuitive way to do that for most people.

But if the most important issue for you is to avoid having your screen skew when you change direction, then I can understand your preference for navigating in north up mode.