North Up or Heading Up?

[jtsailjt]

North up for planning and plotting a course. Course up when underway. Much more important to stay oriented to surroundings than to an arbitrary reference. If radar is needed I usually use split screen rather than radar overlay. If using radar overlay, heading up on chart so both radar and chart match what I will see with my eyes if the fog clears.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Wotname

In real life you see prominent landmark say over you left shoulder.

You want to tell someone else about it.

1. Do you say it is on your left?

2. Do you say it is at your (say) 8 o'clock?

3. Do you say it is (insert a compass bearing)?



If you do 1 or 2, the other person has to know what way you are facing before the information is helpful. Such additional information is unnecessary if you do 3.



I don't get this "Heading Up" clinging except in a few specialised situations.

On a boat or plane the o’clock reference is in relation to the orientation of the vehicle, not the individual person, so 12 o’clock is always straight towards the bow or the front of the plane. Anyone you’d be giving directions to presumably knows where that is. If not, maybe there’s not much point in conversing with them about navigation.

BTW, when using o’clock positions it’s good to get in the habit of saying right 4 o’clock or left 11 o’clock, etc to avoid confusion in case the person giving the direction is a north up type and is confused about which way you are going. Air traffic controllers often suffer from this. I don’t know how many times I’ve been told to look for traffic at my 2 o’clock and the traffic shows up at 10 o’clock. So after awhile, if someone tells me to look at 2 o’clock for something I got in the habit of checking “both” 2 o’clocks. Saying left or right first gets their eyes immediately moving in the correct direction and then the o’clock position immediately following refines it. If they don’t correspond with each other, the listener will become aware that there’s confusion and can query you for clarification. As a USAF fighter pilot it’s a huge faux pas to not also give the left/right direction when calling out o’clock position because any momentary confusion can mean death vs life. So it became a habit.

[requiem]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

On a boat or plane the o’clock reference is in relation to the orientation of the vehicle, not the individual person, so 12 o’clock is always straight towards the bow or the front of the plane. Anyone you’d be giving directions to presumably knows where that is. If not, maybe there’s not much point in conversing with them about navigation.

BTW, when using o’clock positions it’s good to get in the habit of saying right 4 o’clock or left 11 o’clock, etc to avoid confusion in case the person giving the direction is a north up type and is confused about which way you are going. Air traffic controllers often suffer from this.

If they know bearings are relative to the bow, there's no reason you can't stick with the traditional relative bearings. The o'clock method always struck me as an airplane person thing.

While it's not universal, the red/green method serves the same purpose as the left/right method:

https://youtu.be/Q0yL0ddfgWc?t=472

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

The last person I heard use the 'clock face mechanism' was Hop Harrigan.

Do your crew also use 'left' and 'right'?

Clock face with 12 o’clock at the bow , is more or less universally understood

Points of the bow is not.

Training someone during a tense position reporting scenario on compass points isn’t the most useful thing to do.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

North up for planning and plotting a course. Course up when underway. Much more important to stay oriented to surroundings than to an arbitrary reference.

Arbitrary? You mean as arbitrary as the course you're steering? Or the bearing of an object? It's about arbitrary as the clock face you seem to favour - why is the 12 kept at the top - why isn't the current time up?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Arbitrary? You mean as arbitrary as the course you're steering? Or the bearing of an object? It's about arbitrary as the clock face you seem to favour - why is the 12 kept at the top - why isn't the current time up?

Stop arguing nonsense , just to make a point

The vast majority of people understand the clock face system. And at least you can inform them “ 12 o’clock is the bow “ , no point rabbeting on about points on a compass to most crew who these days only have a vague idea of what you are talking about.

Next you’ll be telling to use “ cables “ as measurement for distance off. !, ( or fathoms for depth )

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

North up for planning and plotting a course. Course up when underway. Much more important to stay oriented to surroundings than to an arbitrary reference. If radar is needed I usually use split screen rather than radar overlay. If using radar overlay, heading up on chart so both radar and chart match what I will see with my eyes if the fog clears.

Correct and it’s the way the vast majority of sailors these days orientate themselves. Proper northup , was generally only on ships anyway , using gyros. It’s a relatively recent arrival to yachts. In reality it needs a good satellite compass rather then a GPS reference, and most fluxgates don’t do good northup , this is especially true if using MARPA

[StuM]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Proper northup , was generally only on ships anyway , using gyros. It’s a relatively recent arrival to yachts. In reality it needs a good satellite compass rather then a GPS reference, and most fluxgates don’t do good northup , this is especially true if using MARPA

Absolute nonsense.
North up is the only setting that DOESN"T require any sort of external feed. And is the way charts have been used for hundreds of years, whether on paper or more recently displayed on a screen.



Does the paper chart laid out on a chart table or pinned to a bulkhead need a gyro /GPS /fluxgate to know which way is "up"? Or is it always used "North up"? The charts in a chartplotter are no different.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Correct and it’s the way the vast majority of sailors these days orientate themselves. Proper northup , was generally only on ships anyway , using gyros. It’s a relatively recent arrival to yachts. In reality it needs a good satellite compass rather then a GPS reference, and most fluxgates don’t do good northup , this is especially true if using MARPA

That's true for radar where heading-up is the natural data orientation. But not for charts. For a chart, north up is the natural orientation based on the chart data and requires no external data. It's conversion to heading up, course up, etc. that requires either heading, CoG or other info to orient.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

That's true for radar where heading-up is the natural data orientation. But not for charts. For a chart, north up is the natural orientation based on the chart data and requires no external data. It's conversion to heading up, course up, etc. that requires either heading, CoG or other info to orient.

Of course north-up is natural.....in a paper chart world. But raster charts are now obsolete having been replaced by ENCs. Maybe it's time to evolve and adapt to capabilities that didn't exist in the old paper-based world. There didn't used to be a choice about north up.

Longitudinal navigation was only made possible a few centuries ago when relatively accurate chronometers were developed. I have to wonder if the legacy contingent of CF had been around, would they have objected saying "we've been navigating just fine with latitude-only for a long time. No need confusing the navigator with newfangled longitude coordinates."

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Of course north-up is natural.....in a paper chart world. But raster charts are now obsolete having been replaced by ENCs. Maybe it's time to evolve and adapt to capabilities that didn't exist in the old paper-based world. There didn't used to be a choice about north up.

Longitudinal navigation was only made possible a few centuries ago when relatively accurate chronometers were developed. I have to wonder if the legacy contingent of CF had been around, would they have objected saying "we've been navigating just fine with latitude-only for a long time. No need confusing the navigator with newfangled longitude coordinates."

Raster or ENC, the computer doesn't care...it can keep the orientation steady or spin it to follow course/heading. Likewise, you can spin a paper chart but it's usually a sign of someone with limited experience navigating.

[Frankly]

Maybe we could agree that sitting down below working a nav problem (paper or electronic) usually we use north up.

When we shift to the helm position some use heading/ course up and some still continue with north up. What ever rocks your boat.

Either way works and I think there is something to where you are traveling. Because I spend a fair amount of time inland/ coastal, where I am concerned with channel markers/ water depth, I will glance at the chart to confirm what my eyes think is going on. Course up just fits the situation better IMO. On an offshore passage I could just as easily operate with north up and in some ways it probably makes more sense.

A great and thoughtful discussion. I harken back to the days of charts and a compass (hand held and fixed) and realize just how life afloat is improved by GPS and electronic charts. I still have an old plastic jacket for dragging the Chart Packs up to a wet cockpit to and try to figure where the Hell we are.

Remember looking through the binoculars to get bearing to marker (bouncing around), remembering that you have a magnetic reading not true, and fitzing with the parallel ruler getting a line on the chart. You are just half way there. And if you are steering with your foot it really gets busy. I for one am not interested in going back to being an "Ancient Mariner". Chart Plotters, Autopilots, and Refrigeration are three things that have made boating fun (roller reefing too for us sailors).


Frankly

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Stop arguing nonsense , just to make a point

The vast majority of people understand the clock face system. And at least you can inform them “ 12 o’clock is the bow “ , no point rabbeting on about points on a compass to most crew who these days only have a vague idea of what you are talking about.

Next you’ll be telling to use “ cables “ as measurement for distance off. !, ( or fathoms for depth )

What's nonsense? If you refer to "North" as being arbitrary, that implies that any compass course is arbitrary. Now that is nonsense.

I think you overestimate the value of the clock system. The vast majority of under-25 yo's have grown up in a digital world. Many don't even know how to read an analogue clock, and for those who can, it isn't intuitive. Even amongst old farts, the ability to convert the vertically-imagined clock face to the horizontal plane, is beyond their natural talent.

And yes, I do use cables, since we use nautical miles on board. I wouldn't convert to km to ease a newbie's understanding. And if the chart uses fathoms, then I'll use fathoms too. Doing otherwise would be stupid. Easier to teach the systems that have worked for centuries, rather than convert to an arbitrary one under the belief that it's any easier to work with generally.

[svfinlandia]

Originally Posted by glenn.225

I don't know about the navy but in the army we always "orientated the map to the ground". I and do the same with my gps I don't so much care where north is I want to know where I'm going.

+1
I don’t want to see my boat sailing sideways across the screen.

Al, S/V Finlandia

[rwallace]

North up at nav station below which corresponds to paper charts on the table. At helm, mostly north up, but will switch to heads up if “driving” something like the US Intercostal Waterway.