Radar and Chartplotter musings

[BigAl.NZ]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

It is??!

I can’t even see our midget black and white chart plotter from the helm now, and have never navigated with radar overlay. The only navigational mishaps we’ve had involved trying to go into uncharted waters in the first place and sticking in the mud.

Interesting thread. Just two add my 0.02c on the overlay subject. I just got a all new setup from Raymarine with Axiom Pro 9" and Quantum 2 Radar. Super happy with it. I thought I would love the overlay and have it on all the time, but as pointed out the returns are not so clear in the overlay - see in my video here at 1:35

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI_rwdd7F_0

I am better off to split screen radar and chart plotter so that I can see the returns on there own screen. The one place where overlay would be handy is in Fiji where island positions (and reefs) can be a few hundred meters ou

Regarding redundancy - if my Axiom plotter fails I loose the radar, but the redundancy of the plotter would just be our tablet with Nav software on it.

I had both the Axiom and Radar on the other day and was only drawing about 2.5 amps from memory.

[Dauntlessny]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

I can definitely see the points raised, that the overlay is not necessary and that the magnetrons are quite reliable within their lifetimes. I am still using a C80 with an analog radar and slowly acquiring components to go newer. However, technology marches on and there is no point in trying to convince ourselves to stick with 15 year old technology no matter how well it works.

I agree that most new affordable chartplotters are small. For example, you can get an a65 for $300. If you want to get a top of the line Raymarine/Garmin in 12” size (the min requires to match the 8.4” C80 4:3 display) you need to shell out $3000 plus $1600 for the digital radar and it becomes expensive for what you get. But for new installs, please, go ahead.

Most older analog radars are second hand and you do not know the quality of the magnetron despite what the heater hour counter says. Hence, you are taking a risk. High end digital magnetron radars are better that the solid state equivalents but you run into power issues on a small boat.

Once you have been sailing with a good, stabilized chart overlay, using MARPA to track racing boats around you and measure their speed relative to you... you do not want to go back.

SV Pizzazz

So, when cell phones came out and I got one about 20 years ago, whenever my mother would call me and I didn't answer, she was convinced i didn't want to talk to her.
Why?
She "heard" my phone ringing on her end, therefore I heard it to.

In her analog world, there were no dropped calls, no missed calls, no areas of no coverage.

That phone in the kitchen worked for 40 + years under all sorts of abuse.

And that phone in the kitchen is far closer to an old analog radar than anything today.

As for the One Display to rule them all. We all know how that movie ended.

Lastly, the difference between a radar display and a chart plotter is the former shows only things you can hit or hit you. Often, it's nice to separate the important from the less important.

Cluttered displays showing too much information work great until they don't either:
Because they showed too much information and hid the one critical item you actually needed to see, or the display dies because of some one cent component made in someone's kitchen in China and now you are SOL.

i really like the OP's plan.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by billknny

. .. .

For us, on our boat, doing things backwards to what you suggest makes a lot more sense. We have the MFD in the cockpit, and use the iPad below to mirror. The MFD's can be seen in sunlight, they are orders of magnitude more waterproof and more robust than an iPad--even one in a case. And they are available 24/7 without charging.

Indeed.



So -- you've got one waterproof, rugged, daylight-visible device, and one fragile, non-waterproof, non-daylight visible device, and you're trying to decide which one to put in the cockpit and which one at the nav station. Is this really a hard decision?!




I elected to have real chart plotters in both places, but if I had to get by with only one, I would certainly put it at the helm.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Indeed.



So -- you've got one waterproof, rugged, daylight-visible device, and one fragile, non-waterproof, non-daylight visible device, and you're trying to decide which one to put in the cockpit and which one at the nav station. Is this really a hard decision?!




I elected to have real chart plotters in both places, but if I had to get by with only one, I would certainly put it at the helm.

We have a zero display helm.

First, there is no where suitable to mount an MFD.

Second, sailing, especially at night, I prefer to look out and around. I find that at night my eyes wander to the TV instead of the inky blackness.

Besides that, unless we’re short tacking a narrow channel or the like, the boat is being helmed by the autopilot or the windvane.

[seadago]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

So it occurs to me that the radar is a nice to have, and the tablet that is used to Mirror the screen is actually capable of becoming a chart plotter all on its own. Redundancy solved.

Now, does anyone know if the B&G radar has a timed transmit function like Ray marine or watchman on the furuno unit?

I have a B&G 3G radome and a Vulcan 9 mfd. If you specify a bit more what you mean by "timed transmit function" I can check on my system.

Cheers
Rafael

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by seadago

I have a B&G 3G radome and a Vulcan 9 mfd. If you specify a bit more what you mean by "timed transmit function" I can check on my system.



Cheers

Rafael

Ray marine offers a timed transmit that puts the scanner into standby for a specified amount of time, then sweeps for 10-20 sweeps to check for targets in the guard zone, then goes back to sleep for the specified amount of time.

Furuno also has this and calls it “watchman”

[seadago]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

Ray marine offers a timed transmit that puts the scanner into standby for a specified amount of time, then sweeps for 10-20 sweeps to check for targets in the guard zone, then goes back to sleep for the specified amount of time.

Furuno also has this and calls it “watchman”

Got it! Short answer re the B&G Vulcan model is I don't know. I can do it manually, but don't know if I have an eggtimer facility in it. I'll check during the w.e. and revert. This said, the model I have is no longer latest gen, so this fixture may have been included in subsequent HW or SW upgrades. Fairly easy to check on the B&G website though.

[seadago]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

We have a zero display helm.

First, there is no where suitable to mount an MFD.

Second, sailing, especially at night, I prefer to look out and around. I find that at night my eyes wander to the TV instead of the inky blackness.

Besides that, unless we’re short tacking a narrow channel or the like, the boat is being helmed by the autopilot or the windvane.

This changes the pic substantially.

First and foremost, the thing about redundancy is that it's worthwhile investing money and effort in, only in those systems and services you are not prepared to do without. By it's very nature, redundancy is a temporary characteristic to allow you to complete your task, and thereafter restore your primary system/service to operational status. This is a rule of thumb from industry which always works.

The rationale for not wanting/needing electronic navigation aids at the wheel escapes me somewhat, TBH. I too prefer to keep my eyes on the sea when at the wheel, rather than on the mfd. I achieve this by the simple and expeditious method of switching the damn thing off when I don't absolutely have to look at it. Conserves amps too.

However, if the functionality is available, personally I'd rather have it than not. A large proportion of the value you will pay for in any sophisticated proprietary system, is it's high IP rating.

Notwithstanding, if your preference is to have all instrumentation below deck, then I would go for a PC based system. This has several advantages: mainstream technology, easy to bespoke, setup, and network, among others. And probably lower TCO in the long term.

Check londonchartplotters.co.uk. Steve will architect, put together, and ship the whole shebang for you, including screen mirroring HW and SW.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by seadago

. . . The rationale for not wanting/needing electronic navigation aids at the wheel escapes me somewhat, TBH. . . if the functionality is available, personally I'd rather have it than not. A large proportion of the value you will pay for in any sophisticated proprietary system, is it's high IP rating.


Notwithstanding, if your preference is to have all instrumentation below deck, then I would go for a PC based system. This has several advantages: mainstream technology, easy to bespoke, setup, and network, among others. And probably lower TCO in the long term.

Check londonchartplotters.co.uk. Steve will architect, put together, and ship the whole shebang for you, including screen mirroring HW and SW.

I agree. Chart plotters with smallish screens and vector charts are mildly useful for navigation if nothing better is available, but they are massively useful for pilotage -- so having a plotter at the helm is a killer app for this, massively useful for knowing what buoy you're looking at, knowing where you are at night and in bad viz, and in general knowing where you are in pilotage waters. A huge leap forward in safety, actually. The helm is by far the most valuable place to have such a tool.



At the chart table, for real navigation, something with a bigger screen and preferably with raster charts, is far more useful than a plotter. I do have plotters (8" B&G Zeus) in both places, but the one at the nav station is more for displaying radar. For navigation, I have a 23" 4k monitor displaying OpenCPN with mostly raster charts. You can do something like actual chart work with that.

[KeelMe]

I recently took to playing with OpenCPN via OpenPlotter on a Raspberry Pi. I very much enjoy it and wish I worked with it more often in the field.