Radar is now redundant ?

[svfinlandia]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

The US military has messed with radar and all other electronics in the past.
This is a shot of my radar screen going through Hampton Roads two weeks after 911. My VHF got nothing but Static, my GPS produced nonsense and even my depth sounder was a jumbled mess. This all cleared up just before we got to Great Bridge. I have no doubt the US military was messing with UHF, VHF, RF and sonar signals. Same thing happened passing Kings Bay sub station ... We may be seeing that again in the near future.

PS. I am Radar, ARPA, MARPA Certified so know my radar was set up properly

I did not know that they could do that, but I guess I’m not surprised.
I am amazed that they could mess with your depth sounder though.

Al, S/V Finlandia

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by svfinlandia

I did not know that they could do that, but I guess I’m not surprised.
I am amazed that they could mess with your depth sounder though.

Al, S/V Finlandia

There were hundreds of warships there at the time (many hadn't moved for years) the docks and anchorage were packed and every single one of them had manned machine gun posts very visible. small fast attack craft also with machine guns shadowed every pleasurecraft through.

We went through there on the way north 5 months later there were only about 20 ships in the entire harbour and they were all undergoing major repair. It's amazing how fast they cleared that place. They recommissioned everything they could.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by svfinlandia

The US Coast Guard uses fake AIS all the time as ATONS.
I ran over one in the Chesapeake a couple of years ago south of Tangier Island. It was marked on the chart, it showed up on AIS, but it wasn’t there.
I am not sure how are you could fake a radar echo though.

Al, S/V Finlandia

Its call a wave return.

[CyKlop]

Remember that both radar and gps are, at their core, just radio receivers. Pump false data in their band and you can either lead them astray or simply blanket them with noise.

Sonar is, at its core, just a loudspeaker and microphone. So, by broadcasting proper sounds, you can do the same thing to sonar as you do to radar.

In AIS, the sending ship (the one with the AIS transmitter) sends a data packet with their position, heading, speed, and identification number, plus optionally other information. There is nothing to prevent a vessel from reporting their position as somewhere else.

[AlanR]

That's Radar interference, but it is not a spoof image. A spoof on Radar and Sonar would be very, very difficult to generate.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

This is a shot of my radar screen going through Hampton Roads two weeks after 911. My VHF got nothing but Static, my GPS produced nonsense and even my depth sounder was a jumbled mess. This all cleared up just before we got to Great Bridge. I have no doubt the US military was messing with UHF, VHF, RF and sonar signals. Same thing happened passing Kings Bay sub station ...

Originally Posted by boatpoker

There were hundreds of warships there at the time (many hadn't moved for years) the docks and anchorage were packed and every single one of them had manned machine gun posts very visible. small fast attack craft also with machine guns shadowed every pleasurecraft through.

We passed through Portsmouth at the same time. Didn't have radar on that boat, but never had any issues with VHF, GPS, depth, etc.

-Chris

[requiem]

Originally Posted by svfinlandia

I did not know that they could do that, but I guess I’m not surprised.
I am amazed that they could mess with your depth sounder though.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was more a side effect than intentional. Long runs of unshielded wiring, probably no ferrite chokes on them, combined with a ton of radiating warships.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

The US military has messed with radar and all other electronics in the past.
This is a shot of my radar screen going through Hampton Roads two weeks after 911. My VHF got nothing but Static, my GPS produced nonsense and even my depth sounder was a jumbled mess. This all cleared up just before we got to Great Bridge. I have no doubt the US military was messing with UHF, VHF, RF and sonar signals. Same thing happened passing Kings Bay sub station ... We may be seeing that again in the near future.

PS. I am Radar, ARPA, MARPA Certified so know my radar was set up properly

That's what we call "running rabbits" and you seem to have gotten a whole warren. Get a lot of radars running on the same frequency spectrum and from the sound of it, a lot of vertical steel wall for lots of return, and it fills up the screen - it's not spoofing, not intentional. Much the same with ES, there was probably too much noise in the water with all the high-power ES in close proximity, and possibly some active sonar. Interference on VHF/UHF was probably a side-effect of all the attenuating radiation.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by AlanR

That's Radar interference, but it is not a spoof image. A spoof on Radar and Sonar would be very, very difficult to generate.

As I said, I am r/m/a Certified and know how to tune radar. That interference could not be cleared and of course it is RF as I said. Do you believe the US military is incapable of introducing this much RF interference around one of their biggest military installations ? Neither does your suggestion does not explain the same issue at Kings Bay

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

The US military has messed with radar and all other electronics in the past.
This is a shot of my radar screen going through Hampton Roads two weeks after 911. My VHF got nothing but Static, my GPS produced nonsense and even my depth sounder was a jumbled mess. This all cleared up just before we got to Great Bridge. I have no doubt the US military was messing with UHF, VHF, RF and sonar signals. Same thing happened passing Kings Bay sub station ... We may be seeing that again in the near future.

PS. I am Radar, ARPA, MARPA Certified so know my radar was set up properly

After 911 I don't doubt it at Hampton Roads or at King's Bay. I'm glad we can do it.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

As I said, I am r/m/a Certified and know how to tune radar. That interference could not be cleared and of course it is RF as I said. Do you believe the US military is incapable of introducing this much RF interference around one of their biggest military installations ? Neither does your suggestion does not explain the same issue at Kings Bay

I doubt its deliberate interference. US defence does not rely on allowing things to get to radar range before detection, hence close in interference is unlikely to be deliberate

[Baby tug]

I have nothing against radar if you find it useful fine personally my opinion I don’t find it hardly useful at all in fact I find it a distraction , it is somewhat useful at night that’s about it unless you can get your array Up high on a stable platform I find it pretty much useless rocking and rolling in a beam swell , I don’t find chart plotter to be inaccurate at all They’re very accurate . I’ve been using my tablet 100% reliably for years in a 5 to 7 knot boat I prefer my eyeballs over radar anytime just my opinion

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Baby tug

I have nothing against radar if you find it useful fine personally my opinion I don’t find it hardly useful at all in fact I find it a distraction , it is somewhat useful at night that’s about it unless you can get your array Up high on a stable platform I find it pretty much useless rocking and rolling in a beam swell , I don’t find chart plotter to be inaccurate at all They’re very accurate . I’ve been using my tablet 100% reliably for years in a 5 to 7 knot boat I prefer my eyeballs over radar anytime just my opinion

In thick fog your eyeballs are just as useless for collision avoidance as everyone else’s are, unless they are being used to look at your radar screen.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by BB7

Fair point re fishing boats, thanks. Rocks are charted adequately, and radar wont find them anyway. When you are sailing at night do you rely on the radar?

Yes. Unlit buoys don’t use AIS. Boats without AIS don’t use AIS[emoji3]. Jetties don’t use AIS

Complementary tools….

[Cadence]

It's apples and oranges. Until everything is transmitting I'd opt. for radar.