Sailmail?

[Dockhead]

I've been flummoxed by the awful rule which bars U.S. amateur radio operators from using WinLink for any kind of third party traffic, which has eliminated the usefulness of that for me for anything except getting weather info through saildocs.


I'm thinking again about SailMail. I was always put off by the high cost $275 a year -- no monthly system -- and the limit on connection time -- 90 minutes a week.


Starlink is a great solution but I don't have a good place to mount the antenna, and the capital cost is significant, and I'm not doing so many really long passages these days. I'll definitely spring for this if I go further afield in this boat, but these days I'm rarely on passage for more than 2-3 days and even those are not more than a few times a year.


So I think again about SailMail. Expensive for what it is (I know it's non-profit; it's just inherently expensive); Iridium Go! would probably be a more sensible choice, but I enjoy messing around with the radio and have PACTOR so there's no capital cost involved.


Anyone still using SailMail, or is it dying off?

[Jammer]

For clarity, the "awful rule" is one that Winlink and the ARRL have made up of whole cloth and not an edict handed down by the FCC. It is at odds with the amateur radio tradition.

As for SailMail, I understand that their user/membership base has been declining but still exists.

You might take a look at Iridium Certus. For many use cases, overall costs are similar. In your case since your HF system is a sunk cost it may not work financially.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jammer

For clarity, the "awful rule" is one that Winlink and the ARRL have made up of whole cloth and not an edict handed down by the FCC. It is at odds with the amateur radio tradition.

As for SailMail, I understand that their user/membership base has been declining but still exists.

You might take a look at Iridium Certus. For many use cases, overall costs are similar. In your case since your HF system is a sunk cost it may not work financially.

Well, Iridium Go perfectly suits my use case. I had one for a while and was very pleased with it. The capital cost is small (< one boat buck) and you can switch the unlimited plan on and off at will (just the cost of a SIM card is lost). It's roughly similar in bandwidth to an average PACTOR connection and vastly less fiddling.


That would be the practical solution.


But I have the radio, and I like playing with it . . .

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I've been flummoxed by the awful rule which bars U.S. amateur radio operators from using WinLink for any kind of third party traffic, which has eliminated the usefulness of that for me for anything except getting weather info through saildocs.


I'm thinking again about SailMail. I was always put off by the high cost $275 a year -- no monthly system -- and the limit on connection time -- 90 minutes a week.


Starlink is a great solution but I don't have a good place to mount the antenna, and the capital cost is significant, and I'm not doing so many really long passages these days. I'll definitely spring for this if I go further afield in this boat, but these days I'm rarely on passage for more than 2-3 days and even those are not more than a few times a year.


So I think again about SailMail. Expensive for what it is (I know it's non-profit; it's just inherently expensive); Iridium Go! would probably be a more sensible choice, but I enjoy messing around with the radio and have PACTOR so there's no capital cost involved.


Anyone still using SailMail, or is it dying off?

I liked SailMail, and even used it with Iridium Go! You need a callsign to signup, but it will work through Iridium Go once setup. They would probably have more users if they offered a Iridium Go! plan.

Anyway, a feature I really liked with Sailmail, is that it connects to another provider via POP3, and downloads only the headers. Then you get to select only the messages you wish to download. And the download is filtered to only include the text. So you can check your main email, without having to download a huge amount of data. That is important even with the Go!

It seems that it hasn't been actively developed or supported for some time. Airmail is atrociously old and in dire need of a refresh. There isn't any support for tablets/phones.

Also, FWIW, winlink also works with Iridium Go!, again you need a callsign to sign up, but don't need a radio to access it, and doesn't seem to have any ridiculous limitations when doing so. But it doesn't have the integration with your other email accounts.

The Iridium Go! comes with free email, but it uses a proprietary protocol, so you have to use their terrible app, which is available on android and ios, but not on a PC. So there isn't any easy way to download a grib into a PC for viewing.

[Bellinghamster]

I don't believe all 3rd party traffic is barred. From what I understand, 3rd party traffic is allowed if US to US stations or between any countries that have a 3rd party traffic agreement (i.e. US to AUS).

As long as it's personal communications (email between friends) or you're not paying for it (i.e. free gribs), then it's non-commercial. I can see issues with trying to place an order for parts via email over winlink (commercial transaction), therefore paid-for weather forecasts seem like it'd fall on the wrong side of the line.

Am I missing something?

Sources:
https://www.winlink.org/terms_condit...non%2Dlicensee.
https://www.arrl.org/third-party-operating-agreements

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by Bellinghamster

I don't believe all 3rd party traffic is barred. From what I understand, 3rd party traffic is allowed if US to US stations or between any countries that have a 3rd party traffic agreement (i.e. US to AUS).

As long as it's personal communications (email between friends) or you're not paying for it (i.e. free gribs), then it's non-commercial. I can see issues with trying to place an order for parts via email over winlink (commercial transaction), therefore paid-for weather forecasts seem like it'd fall on the wrong side of the line.

Am I missing something?

Sources:
https://www.winlink.org/terms_condit...non%2Dlicensee.
https://www.arrl.org/third-party-operating-agreements

The main problem is the forbidding of commercial traffic, and the Nazi like mis-enforcement of rules.

A close friend of my had his Winlink account terminated when he suffered a steering failure between NZ and New Caledonia. He Emailed Scanmar for advice, and also was emailing New Cal. to arrange a tow when he got close. Moderators intercepted the communication, deemed both were commercial, and first gave him a warning. He declared it was an emergency and thus acceptable under the FCC rules, and continued to make arrangements. They cut him off and terminated the communication, putting his life in danger. He ended up making a Pan Pan on HF, and soliciting help from the Coast Guard.

So, Eff that. The Winlink system has been taken over by people that don't care about the actual FCC rules, and simply want cruisers off of the HAM bands, and will do anything, even put our life in jeopardy to do it.

And lets face it, no matter how you look at it, emailing a marina or customs before arrival are both commercial, and both things you will need to use email for. It is just not reality that it would only be used for weather gribs.

But, the 3rd party traffic is a problem too. It isn't as simple as US to AUS. It has to do with where the Winlink station you are connecting to is. If you are in the south Pacific, connected to a Winlink station on an island, or in Asia, or South America, sending an email to Australia to coordinate your arrival, it will probably be rejected. An email to saildocs would probably be rejected, too. But, only if you have a US callsign. If you are licensed outside the US, you are fine. Unless you happen to connect to a Winlink station in the US. Freaking nonsense, and it's an old rule that shouldn't apply at all in modern HAM usage. It needs to be overturned, but won't since HAMS want us off their frequencies anyway.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bellinghamster

I don't believe all 3rd party traffic is barred. From what I understand, 3rd party traffic is allowed if US to US stations or between any countries that have a 3rd party traffic agreement (i.e. US to AUS).

As long as it's personal communications (email between friends) or you're not paying for it (i.e. free gribs), then it's non-commercial. I can see issues with trying to place an order for parts via email over winlink (commercial transaction), therefore paid-for weather forecasts seem like it'd fall on the wrong side of the line.

Am I missing something?

Sources:
https://www.winlink.org/terms_condit...non%2Dlicensee.
https://www.arrl.org/third-party-operating-agreements

That USED to be the rule. Now a U.S. station can't send personal emails at all. Blocked by Winlink. The rules changed several years ago.


Another solution for me would be to get a non-U.S. license.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by wholybee

The main problem is the forbidding of commercial traffic, and the [...] mis-enforcement of rules.

This.

And lets face it, no matter how you look at it, emailing a marina or customs before arrival are both commercial, [...]

Well, actually, no, they're not, not traditionally by ham standards, and not according to the FCC.



Commercial use is using radio in furtherance of a trade of business. If you run a concrete company and use radio to communicate between a dispatcher and the trucks, that's commercial. If you run a marina and use a radio to communicate with boats, that's commercial. If you run a parts business and use your Winlink account to solicit business, that's commercial.


If you are using radio to contact a commercial entity to place an order for personal non-commercial reasons, that isn't commercial use. Back in the day the example was 2 meter repeaters with phone patch. The way the line was drawn then was that you could call someone and order a pizza but if you were a building contractor on a job site you couldn't call your customers to coordinate work.


Back in the day, amateur radio was used for all kinds of "utility" purposes. That is, situations where the communications being carried actually had useful content rather than just being an exercise in radio for the sake of radio. Probably the most common example was phone calls home for members of the armed forces, in the era when international long distance was prohibitively expensive. Another example was communications for large public events -- parades, festivals -- before there were cell phones. A third example was disaster relief efforts, before public safety radio systems received the post-9/11 upgrades so that assistance from amateur radio operators was no longer useful.

[laeleasterling]

FWIW - My experience with SAILMAIL.


I've used Sailmail since 2008. Crossed the Pacific with it using the HF radio interface in 2009. Crossed the Indian Ocean in 2023 using the Iridium GO! interface.


* The app is intuitive.
* Jim Corenman supports the program. After 15 years of use, I found a way to break it. Jim corrected the issue in less than a day.
* The Shadowmail feature that monitors my POP3 addresses is a huge time and resource saver.
* The Sailmail Iridium GO! interface is reliable; much more so than the Iridium mail and Predict Wind apps.
* The program coding is elegant; not that I am a competent programmer (my experience goes back to Fortran IV in 1975); but it functions quick and clean. I would hate to give up that performance for an update to make it look pretty.
* Each user has a unique perspective on cost. Mine is the $270 annual fee is a fantastic value; about the same as one month of marine Starlink.
* The clever GRIB interface provides excellent information for minimum online time. I downloaded GRIBs every day of the Pacific crossing; albeit with propagation and self-noise challenges. Iridium GO! provided flexibility for download time and freed me from the vagaries of daily propagation patterns and self-noise. I appreciate PWs wealth of information. Nonetheless, I found followup of PW downloads with quick SAILMAIL GRIB downloads useful.

[wrwakefield]

I’ve used UUplus with Iridium Sat phone, and a GO for years. Works great, and uses Sailmail for file retrieval. Lots of excellent features. About US$1/day, and can be paused.

UUplus also has a version for MF/HF radios, but I have no experience with it.

FWIW

Cheers, Bill

[Mattzilla]

We had a Pactor on board which I got working, and still keep a Sailmail account, basically for the same reasoning re Starlink, onghoing costs etc.
Have used it successfully in areas with no 4G coverage to get fax and grib data (albeit small grib areas)
If Starlink comes down in cost or we start doing more offshore/international I will probably head that way, but the nostalgia of 20+ minutes to receive all the data is a kind of fun that takes me back to dial up modem days on land

[Capt.Don]

Not to start a lengthy debate,

Originally Posted by wholybee

...Also, FWIW, winlink also works with Iridium Go!, again you need a callsign to sign up, but don't need a radio to access it, and doesn't seem to have any ridiculous limitations when doing so. But it doesn't have the integration with your other email accounts....

I never got Winlink (HAM) to connect using the Iridium Go! Winlink would start to connect, then hang during authentication handshake. I read somewhere that the Iridium Go! feature was only enabled for SailDocs due to licensing and cost, and not Ham/Winlink accounts. I gave up trying to use the Winlink with Iridium Go!. The Iridium Go! email on iOS works fine.

I went through a similar progression -- Winlink w/Pactor modem until I had several "violations" for querying a marina (during Covid) as to whether they had slips available, then Iridium Go! with Iridium Web and Mail on an iPad; sold the Iridium Go! and was ready to purchase Starlink, only to have problems with my US credit card in Mexico, so bought another Iridium Go!. I still test Winlink once or twice a season to make sure it still works, in case of emergency.

You can find reasonable Iridium Go! for around $400 on eBay.

It is interesting, in looking at the Winlink "Message Viewer", most of their traffic is query@saildocs.com and a lot of "test" messages. There's very little email traffic, most likely due to their overly restrictive policy. Not many people are using their network.

Winlink w/Pactor was great, but I can't deal with a simple request, which is allowed by the FCC (e.g., order pizza), leading to being blocked from using their service.

About to reactivate another Iridium Go! SIM card for $150/month.

Don

[CarlF]

I'd really take another look at Starlink. It gives you much more (and less expesnive) weather forecast options. Email and SMS works as easily as ashore (pictures and attachments included)

You can get away with less than ideal antenna mounting. Mine's on a pole that sits loose in a fishing rod holder clamped to the stern rail. I've gone 2000 miles offshore this way with it just wiggling around back there (I really should secure it better). It's also easy to remove and put below. Some people just bring their Starlink on deck when needed and let its little tripod mount sit in the cockpit. It will also work through thin fiberglass decks and canvas. It all costs less than an Iridium. Putting it below decks may slow it a bit making streaming your favorite 4K movie harder - but it's still 1000 times the speed of Iridium.

You can pause the monthly subscription at anytime and have no ongoing costs. Mine is currently paused for six months. Getting it going again is as simple as clicking a slider in the app. They then charge me for the next month ($150 in the US). When more than about 10 miles offshore you are charged (in the US) $2/GB for what you actually use. In your use case it's hard to imagine you ever spending as much as $2. And for a boat of your size the 50-60 watts power draw is insignificant - and you can always tunplug it when you go to bed to save power.

While Starlink at first had difficulties offshore over the last 12 months it's become rock solid at sea as they've launched more satelites and improved the software. If power is a concern, you don't have to leave it on all the time.

At anchor or nearer shore it's also means that regular mobile phone works normally using wifi calling (as if you are using a hotel wifi). Everyone's devices on the boat just connects the Starlink wifi like a mobil hotspot. It's as if you have a strong 5G connection everywhere you go.

Another possibility is that the starlink "mini" antenna is due to be released soon. Very few details - such as will it work offshore? - but I'd wait to see before investing in Iridium hardware.

[CarlF]

I'd really take another look at Starlink before considering buying new Iridium hardware. Starlink hardware is considerably cheaper and you can always sell it on ebay for a good price. It's not just for offshore. Unless you have a very strong 5G signal everywhere you go, Starlink is by far the best both in marina and on coastal trips. All of our phones and tablets automatically switch to Starlink wifi the moment we step on the boat.

You can get away with less than ideal antenna mounting. Mines on a pole that sits lose in a fishing rod holder clamped to the stern rail. I've gone 2000 miles offshore this way with it just wiggling around back there (I really should secure it better). It's also easy to remove and put below. Some people just bring their Starlink on deck when needed and let its little tripod mount sit in the cockpit. It will also work through thin fiberglass decks and canvas. It all costs less than an Iridium. Putting it below decks may slow it a bit making streaming your favorite 4K movie harder - but it's still 1000 times the speed of Iridium.

While the monthly Starlink subscription is more than the minimium Iridium subscription, you can pause the monthly subscription at anytime and have no ongoing costs. Mine is currently paused for six months. Getting it going again is as simple as clicking a slider in the app. No credits will have expired or similiar Iridium foolishness. When more than about 10 miles offshore you are charged (in the US) $2/GB for what you actually use. In your use case it's hard to imagine you ever spending as much as $2.

While Starlink at first had difficulties offshore over the last 12 months it's become rock solid at sea as they've launched more satelites and improved the software. If power is a concern, you don't have to leave it on all the time.

Another possibility is that the starlink "mini" antenna is due to be released soon. Very few details - such as will it work offshore? - but I'd wait to see before investing in Iridium hardware.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by CarlF

I'd really take another look at Starlink before considering buying new Iridium hardware. Starlink hardware is considerably cheaper and you can always sell it on ebay for a good price. It's not just for offshore. Unless you have a very strong 5G signal everywhere you go, Starlink is by far the best both in marina and on coastal trips. All of our phones and tablets automatically switch to Starlink wifi the moment we step on the boat.

You can get away with less than ideal antenna mounting. Mines on a pole that sits lose in a fishing rod holder clamped to the stern rail. I've gone 2000 miles offshore this way with it just wiggling around back there (I really should secure it better). It's also easy to remove and put below. Some people just bring their Starlink on deck when needed and let its little tripod mount sit in the cockpit. It will also work through thin fiberglass decks and canvas. It all costs less than an Iridium. Putting it below decks may slow it a bit making streaming your favorite 4K movie harder - but it's still 1000 times the speed of Iridium.

While the monthly Starlink subscription is more than the minimium Iridium subscription, you can pause the monthly subscription at anytime and have no ongoing costs. Mine is currently paused for six months. Getting it going again is as simple as clicking a slider in the app. No credits will have expired or similiar Iridium foolishness. When more than about 10 miles offshore you are charged (in the US) $2/GB for what you actually use. In your use case it's hard to imagine you ever spending as much as $2.

While Starlink at first had difficulties offshore over the last 12 months it's become rock solid at sea as they've launched more satelites and improved the software. If power is a concern, you don't have to leave it on all the time.

Another possibility is that the starlink "mini" antenna is due to be released soon. Very few details - such as will it work offshore? - but I'd wait to see before investing in Iridium hardware.

Thanks -- that's interesting.


One thing holding me back is the very expensive Starlink marine antenna and where to mount it. A smaller and cheaper antenna might change everything. In fact a portable antenna which I could set up under the spray hood would be fine. But do you need to have the marine antenna to be allowed to connect offshore (more than 10 miles or whatever offshore)?