Sorting out bus bars on an older boat

[lonecapon]

Hi everyone,

I'm helping a friend with his Baltic 35. I'm currently trying to diagnose some electrical issues and, honestly, I could use a little help. I've been consulting my copy of Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual, but I feel a little stuck.

(We've made a little progress! I got the VHF and the regular radio working again and determined that the chartplotter itself is completely shot).

Our key challenges are that (a) some stuff was hastily wired in which we'd like to legitimize and (b) that the bars aren't labeled at all, making it impossible to figure out which switches are hooked to which instruments.

What's the best way to learn more about what's happening here and to figure out which switches are controlling power to which appliances? I took a picture of both the wiring panel and the distribution panel -- https://imgur.com/a/RS6dxN5.

I'd appreciate any help and guidance you could offer! Working with electrical systems is very new to me so I'm taking it slow.

[stormalong]

For starters those are not buss bars they are terminal strips. Each pair of wire connections is isolated from the next pair. A buss bar is a common connection point for a bunch of wires, like a common positive or negative.

Moving on from that you need a cheap multimeter, expensive is not required for what you are doing. Next wire numbering is very helpful. You can buy wire number sets at any home depot type place or an electrical supplier.

Start by turning everything off. Turn one thing on and use your multimeter to find the powered circuit. Write down the switch location, what was powered up and the wire number.Then just move from switch to switch repeating the process. Before long you will have a reference table.


PS. The copper bars across the circuit breakers are your positive buss bar. I see that you have circuit breakers fuses and switches - unusual mix. A picture of the front of the switch panel would be helpful for further comments.

[lonecapon]

Thank you! I knew I wasn’t using the right term.

I’ll get a few more photos when I go back next weekend.

[wyb2]

I would 2nd everything stormalong said with emphasis on get a multimeter. Going in cold, you would need a multimeter if you had half the circuits you have there. It’s night and day when you start checking for continuity and voltage instead of flipping switches and seeing what happens.

It’s actually reasonably well organized, looks like the terminals even have numbers on them. The PO that did this probably kept a cheat sheet instead of trying to label all the wires, if you can’t find it, you’ll want to make a new one.

A side thought, the DIN rail terminals makes me think they had experience with industrial controls wiring or something similar. Though who knows how well they adapted that experience to a boat. Those 6 blue wires stuffed into the 1 large terminal doesn’t look like it would comply with many standards.

[RaymondR]

One of those test lights which have a lead with an alligator clip and a probe is handy for tracking cables.

Connecting a "flasher" at the appliance end and then searching for the "intermittent" at the panel end can sometimes be more effective than doing it the other way around ("flashers" are the things which make the indicators in your auto flash on and off and can be purchased from auto stores)

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

One of those test lights which have a lead with an alligator clip and a probe is handy for tracking cables.

Connecting a "flasher" at the appliance end and then searching for the "intermittent" at the panel end can sometimes be more effective than doing it the other way around ("flashers" are the things which make the indicators in your auto flash on and off and can be purchased from auto stores)

Yes these are very helpful for that type of thing.

OP: Those dont look like too much of a mess, although complicated for sure for a 36 ft boat!
I dont know what all that feeds but I like to keep things simple on a boat.

You can buy self adhesive wire labeling systems, so as you identify things you could label them and make a list. They can be just a number or a word etc. Amazon even has them. Generally $25 and up, although just ready to use 'number types' are less money than that.

[Hartleyg]

What they said! That panel looks to be home-made, the wire colors are completely useless (mostly black for both positive and negative with a few red wires, though I see blue and white (and maybe green?) in use from the terminal strips).
This means that you need to be marking & labeling as you go - when you figure out what a wire goes to, put at least a tape label on it - then keep a sheet where you can show which breaker, fuse, etc. is connected to what. While this is annoying and tedious, it will save you in the end You don't need to be extra neat, you can do a neat one after you get everything figured out.


Hartley
S/V Atsa

[Putt-Putt]

Let's say this is all low voltage DC. Let's also hope there is no 120V AC onboard. If there is AC on onboard, stop now, go and get an experienced, certified marine electrician.

From this vantage point it looks to me that the power is feed to the outside of the inverted U shaped DIN rail mounted terminal strip, while the loads all connect inside the U. Some of the individual segments of the terminal strip (on the right hand side of the U) look to be connected together (not at all uncommon) to create a multiple wire connection point to a common power feed.

Your test probe or volt meter will tell the tale.

In my mind sorting out power distribution systems starts with power delivery. Here you have some issues.

The two L shaped copper bus bars that are connected to a large diameter wire that originate at the batteries, distributes the 12V power to the 14 circuit breakers. The problem is that the Bus Bar to Circuit Breaker connection appears to be done by driving a #6 screw through a pilot hole in the Bus Bar and into the Circuit Breakers male quick connect blade connector.
Sometimes even leaving an air gap. All of this is far from acceptable.

Furthermore, one of the Circuit breakers is now unused, and the load wire that likely used to be on it (the one with the yellow tape on it) has been ganged onto an adjacent CB. This could be fine if the combined load is within the CB's rating, but what this says is that the original CB has likely failed, otherwise why move the load?

If this is the case, the 13 other CB's are likely past their best before date and understanding that you have to somehow redo the power supply side connection to get rid of the #6 screw anyhow, I would admit defeat now and buy all new CBs with a bolted connection on both sides. Carling Technologies likely has a CB that fits all of your needs including the mounting holes in your panel.

There appears to be some house wire used, which is easy to confirm as it has one solid copper conductor not one made from multiple strands. This is not a huge issue short term provided the connections are done right, but you should replace it with the proper wire sometime soon. In addition the translucent insulated wire(running from upper left to lower right) looks to be speaker wire. If it's driving a speaker fine. If it's powering something else replace it now.

Generally any wire that looks to have been "added later," like the house, speaker and the coiled telephone handset style of wire I am highly suspicious of and investigate it fully.

Please if you proceed do so with an an abundance of caution and seek professional help where your knowledge is lacking.

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by Putt-Putt

Let's say this is all low voltage DC. Let's also hope there is no 120V AC onboard. If there is AC on onboard, stop now, go and get an experienced, certified marine electrician.

From this vantage point it looks to me that the power is feed to the outside of the inverted U shaped DIN rail mounted terminal strip, while the loads all connect inside the U. Some of the individual segments of the terminal strip (on the right hand side of the U) look to be connected together (not at all uncommon) to create a multiple wire connection point to a common power feed.

Your test probe or volt meter will tell the tale.

In my mind sorting out power distribution systems starts with power delivery. Here you have some issues.

The two L shaped copper bus bars that are connected to a large diameter wire that originate at the batteries, distributes the 12V power to the 14 circuit breakers. The problem is that the Bus Bar to Circuit Breaker connection appears to be done by driving a #6 screw through a pilot hole in the Bus Bar and into the Circuit Breakers male quick connect blade connector.
Sometimes even leaving an air gap. All of this is far from acceptable.

Furthermore, one of the Circuit breakers is now unused, and the load wire that likely used to be on it (the one with the yellow tape on it) has been ganged onto an adjacent CB. This could be fine if the combined load is within the CB's rating, but what this says is that the original CB has likely failed, otherwise why move the load?

If this is the case, the 13 other CB's are likely past their best before date and understanding that you have to somehow redo the power supply side connection to get rid of the #6 screw anyhow, I would admit defeat now and buy all new CBs with a bolted connection on both sides. Carling Technologies likely has a CB that fits all of your needs including the mounting holes in your panel.

There appears to be some house wire used, which is easy to confirm as it has one solid copper conductor not one made from multiple strands. This is not a huge issue short term provided the connections are done right, but you should replace it with the proper wire sometime soon. In addition the translucent insulated wire(running from upper left to lower right) looks to be speaker wire. If it's driving a speaker fine. If it's powering something else replace it now.

Generally any wire that looks to have been "added later," like the house, speaker and the coiled telephone handset style of wire I am highly suspicious of and investigate it fully.

Please if you proceed do so with an an abundance of caution and seek professional help where your knowledge is lacking.

Wow Putt-Putt your remarks are pretty harsh and undeserved. The OP asked how to analyze what he has and you criticize everything.

First, a close examination shows all the circuit breakers are DC. The rows of switches and fuses may be AC wiring but there is no need to fear monger. At this stage there is no need for a professional marine electrician. Next, I see no evidence of solid wire. And the coiled cord is just traversing the space, not wired to the panel. And there appears to be engine instruments at the top of the panel.

Yes, there are sheet metal screws into the power side of the circuit breakers. That should be replaced with something better. Spade terminals are OK for the load side but not sheet metal screwed to the buss bars. That air gap I see is probably a loosened screw - easily tightened.

I have seen far worse. Sometimes done by professionals. Just because someone is paid for doing a job does not guarantee competence.

So, let the OP determine what he has before he and the owner decide what to do with it.

[Scubaseas]

Having 120V mixed in on the DC terminal strips is fun. Ask me how I know this. I was literally shocked to realize how my new to me boat was wired. I knew it was bad but after getting into it, well just look at is as theater.

A multimeter will be your best friend here as other have said.

To add to others, a tone generating circuit tester can be helpful in these situations.

Do label things and make a diagram if possible. First thing I did to sort stuff out was to identify and label every wire in the panel. I keep a laminated sheet of the wire/breaker legend next to the panel so can easily identify what is what. One wire at a time, I used a label maker for the numbers put on the wires. Takes time but worth it.

[Putt-Putt]

stormalong.

The OP stated:

- "I'm currently trying to diagnose some electrical issues & honestly, I could use a little help."
- "I've been consulting my copy of B M & E M, but feel a little stuck."
- "some stuff was hastily wired in which we'd like to legitimize"
- "Working with electrical systems is very new to me so I'm taking it slow."

Now let the above and your stated "the rows of switches and fuses may be AC wiring" sink in for a few minutes.
If in the end you think that my suggestion (that if there is AC present) to "get a certified marine electrician" and "to seek professional help where your knowledge is lacking" is in anyway harsh and undeserved then I would consider you not part of the solution, but part of the problem.

Color me stupid but from what the OP stated and the 2 pictures, I would not attempt to determine why the light does not go on (save the bulb) before I made darn sure that the power made it past the CB, reliably.

Please cite any CB manufacturer that would agree with your "easily tightened" suggestion. I'll wait while you ask for their agreement.

While you are also waiting, perhaps you could help the OP and myself out by describing where in the pictures are the fuses that you have mentioned now twice.

Further, I will stand by my house, speaker, coiled and added later wire comment which was to basically "investigate it fully." It can still be an ungrounded conductor even though it is just "transversing the space, not wired to the panel." Why would you be against the OP determining where the speaker or any other weird wire goes?

Finally, I have no ability to alter the determination of the OP or the owner as I have no direct contact with or influence over them. The forum was asked for help and guidance. I responded with this is what I see, this would be my fix and watch out for that. How can this be harsh?

[h20man]

If you do not have the original wiring diagrams from Baltic (https://www.balticyachts.fi/) .... email them... ( https://www.balticyachts.fi/contact/ ) they are incredible in their support of their products, and have digitised many of their vessel documents. A great start to use prior to updating your own wiring diagrams...

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by Putt-Putt

stormalong.

The OP stated:

- "I'm currently trying to diagnose some electrical issues & honestly, I could use a little help."
- "I've been consulting my copy of B M & E M, but feel a little stuck."
- "some stuff was hastily wired in which we'd like to legitimize"
- "Working with electrical systems is very new to me so I'm taking it slow."

Now let the above and your stated "the rows of switches and fuses may be AC wiring" sink in for a few minutes.
If in the end you think that my suggestion (that if there is AC present) to "get a certified marine electrician" and "to seek professional help where your knowledge is lacking" is in anyway harsh and undeserved then I would consider you not part of the solution, but part of the problem.

Color me stupid but from what the OP stated and the 2 pictures, I would not attempt to determine why the light does not go on (save the bulb) before I made darn sure that the power made it past the CB, reliably.

Please cite any CB manufacturer that would agree with your "easily tightened" suggestion. I'll wait while you ask for their agreement.

While you are also waiting, perhaps you could help the OP and myself out by describing where in the pictures are the fuses that you have mentioned now twice.

Further, I will stand by my house, speaker, coiled and added later wire comment which was to basically "investigate it fully." It can still be an ungrounded conductor even though it is just "transversing the space, not wired to the panel." Why would you be against the OP determining where the speaker or any other weird wire goes?

Finally, I have no ability to alter the determination of the OP or the owner as I have no direct contact with or influence over them. The forum was asked for help and guidance. I responded with this is what I see, this would be my fix and watch out for that. How can this be harsh?

OK, I will color you stupid.

The fuses are in a row, directly below the circuit breakers, six or more in a row, with black wires attached and linked to the row of switches directly below them.

My first comment about the sheet metal screws is "That should be replaced with something better." DID YOU READ THAT? My comment about "easily tightened" was for a temporary fix, only stated after writing "That should be replaced with something better."

Both the coiled wire and the speaker wire obviously only traverse the space. Sloppy? Yes. Dangerous? NO.

So lets BE AFRAID of AC wiring and get a professional to work on it. It is easier to cut the AC power on a boat than a house. Just unplug it from shore power and make sure there is no inverter or that it is switched off.

Almost any job on a boat can be done by a dedicated amateur as good as or better than a professional. The dedicated amateur has more vested in the outcome and more time to do a good job than the professional whose goal is to do a job as fast as he can, get paid and move on to the next job.

[Putt-Putt]

Well, if you look closely at the back side of your alleged fuse you will see that there is an uninsulated conductor running horizontal (likely the negative which fuses don't need) that links all of these fuses together. The terminal appears to be built into the fuse holder. If these were 7 fuses, imagine the combined current.
I know of no fuse holder manufacture that would allow you to link their holders together, do you?

My guess is that what you call fuses are indicator lamps that illuminate when the switch is energized. Hence the 3rd terminal on the switch.

Let's see if the OP will chime back in and reveal which of us is stupid.

[ccanupii]

All good advice, but the best advice is still to seek professional help if you are unsure. I did not see it but it needs to be said if it hasn't been. Be prepared to replace the wiring and use marine wire. Most wire harness run a few feet then use a connector to continue on. On my 2003 carver 444, I was having some power issues and traced to a few of these connections. I ended up running all new wire and found some "fixes" with multiple splices and a mix of copper and tinned copper wire. It gets expensive but, fix it correctly now so you don't have to worry about it later.

A meter is a must, a 12v probe is extremely useful. Labels are a must along with a log of what you have labeled. I used a heat shrink label maker and typed out what it was, nav lights, port mfd, stud mfd etc. And put it in a wiring log along with the colot of the wire, gauge of wire, length of run and amp draw of what it is connect to. Easier to reference for battery bank sizing than trying to guess. Also put a label every 5 to 10 feet to help you keep track and well as the start and end of the run.

Keep things simple as well with the wiring. Yellow is ground, red is source power, blue is for 12v power circuits. If you are going to run new wire for things like oil senders, trim tab controllers or other items that need something other than a power and ground, then used different colored wire so you don't get confused later.