ssb for Dummies

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by sck5

"therefore preferable to dielectric grease. "

I plead ignorance. Why do you suppose Gary at dockside specifically called for dielectric grease for the connection of the antenna lead from the At 140 to the backstay? I did what he said and it worked but I am imagining both he and you and have good reasons for what you say so I am curious.

I think it's a question of function. Dielectric is preferable if your intent is to eliminate moisture penetration into a connection.

Conductive grease increases efficacy of the bond within the connection and has the collateral benefit of doing what dielectric grease does.

[ka4wja]

David, 1) While some have given you some good input here, and this should be a indication that you will probably do better troubleshooting any minor issues yourself (with aid of those here, etc.)....I'd like to in-modestly point you to the resources / info / educational material that is right here..

Right here, on Cruiser's Forum, at the top of this Marine Electronics page, are some "stickies" that have a LOT of info in them, and many have links to just about all the info / resources / educational material that you'd ever likely need...such as this one here, "Marine SSB Stuff (how-to better use / properly-install SSB, & troubleshoot RFI, etc.)"
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/marine-ssb-stuff-how-to-better-use-proeprly-install-ssb-and-troubleshoot-rfi-etc-133496.html

Have a look at the "stickies" whose subject looks like something you're interested in....


2) Secondly, and probably most on-point, is "where/how do I find out how all this stuff works? / "what does all of this crap do?"
Well, that's actually a pretty easy answer!
{and, I agree with Dave....the "id-I-yachts" book is fairly mis-jointed and will leave you with mis-information and confusion...my advice, don't click on Amazon!}

Originally Posted by admiralslater

Our Outremer came equipped with a Icom 802 radio and an auto tuner (i think an At 140 or 40). I was going to remove it but someone I met in Dominica said it was a great radio and I should keep it . He showed me a few things and got me intrigued . He suggested a book with a witty name as being good to get for a neophyte like me . Does anyone have any idea what that book might be ? . Also the tuner seems not to be working (makes no noise when changing frequencies ) so I am looking for a teck somewhere from grenada to Antigua this winter . Any help would be great
David

Originally Posted by admiralslater

That's the one thank you . Any advice on service in the Caribbean? I am an absolute beginner in this field

The very best way for most HF Radio ("SSB") laypersons to learn all of this (whether sailors or not), is usually "hands-on", rather than a book....(this is why learning about HF radio and getting a ham license is such a great benefit to many sailors....but, I digress!

Second best is thru seminars / videos....

And, since you're in Canada and boat is in Grenada (and I assume that you don't have any HF Radio at your home in Canada, but you do have internet connection??), you have a perfect opportunity to watch some videos and when you get through them all (yes, they can be a bit repetitious), you will know more than 95% of your fellow cruisers (and, surprisingly more than 85-90% of the so-called "marine electronics experts" charging you $$$) regarding Marine HF Radio ("SSB", "DSC", "Weather FAX", etc...)

I know this might sound odd, but let me repeat that....when you get through all the videos, you will know more than 95% of your fellow cruisers (and, surprisingly more than 85-90% of the so-called "marine electronics experts" charging you $$$) regarding Marine HF Radio!
One of the reasons is that these videos are not done in a lab or studio, nor by some "talking head" ....
Nope, these videos are done in the real-world, for real sailors....done on-board a real offshore cruising boat, LIVE, as it happens....no script, no BS...
These are LIVE, real-world, demonstrations of how/why all this stuff works....not some boring engineer talking "tech speak", nor some "spokesman" following a script...just me, my ~ 45 years of experience, and my M-802...

Depending on your interest level, and free-time, you may find spending a couple hours in the next few days watching the videos, to give you all you need...or it may even spark your interest to learn more, and become a radio nut!
But, whichever the case, I promise they will help you much more than that book!!


"Maritime HF Communications" (takes you through the whole 9 yards)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ZDo_Jk3NB_Bt1y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-1L...ZDo_Jk3NB_Bt1y

"HF-DSC Communications"
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ga2zYuPozhUXZX

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4PO...ga2zYuPozhUXZX

"Icom M-802 Instruction Videos"
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...rC-8QKVyMb4tVr

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8KS...rC-8QKVyMb4tVr

3) Now as for info on "installation" and "troubleshooting".....the "sticky" I referenced above has a LOT of links / references in it...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tc-133496.html

And, if you have specific issues/problems (like your mentioning that your tuner might not be operating), then coming here and asking about a specific problem will get you some good recommendations / advice...
But, please give as much info as you can!!!
PLEASE...
(the hardest part about helping / troubleshooting from a distance is not the distance at all, but rather the lack of info provided by the person with the trouble!!...something that you think innocuous and unimportant might be the key to solving the problem, and while I might notice it in 10 seconds being in front of your radio, the fact that we aren't there means we need as much info as possible....trust me, if you give a lot of info, you will get a resolution to a problem...


Also, following the advice/recommendations of Sailmail in their Sailmail Primer...
https://sailmail.com/wp-content/uplo...2/smprimer.htm


And, for even more RFI troubleshooting/resolution info, there is Jim Corenman's excellent paper
RF Interference



4) And, specifically to the tuner not operating???
-- Could be the inferior connectors used by Icom on the M-802 and AT-140 cable....
-- Could be corrosion on these connections...
-- Could be a broken/cut wire in the AT-140 tuner control cable (that runs from the M-802 to the AT-140)
-- Could be a blown internal 5 amp fuse, inside the M-802's Main Unit...

Or, like Dave eluded to you, it could be nothing at all, but just that you aren't activating the tuner?? You need to either press the TUNE button, or (if the M-802 is programmed to 'auto-tune') press the microphones PTT button and transmit (usually just for a few seconds)....
The AT-140 does not "tune" when you are just changing channels, as it doesn't know you've changed channels until you transmit a signal (if the radio is programmed to 'auto-tune') or press the TUNE button...


Although a lot less likely....it could also be a internal issue in the M-802 not sending the "tune start" signal to the tuner....or the M-802 not providing the "12vdc" to the tuner....or a internal fault inside the AT-140...



5) Ironically, just this weekend I got an e-mail from a sailor who is in Canada, but his boat is in Florida....and while he had a new M-802 installed in France last year......except for talking to another boat on the dock, he has never used it, as most of what he heard when trying to use it was "static"....so he isn't sure if it works / how it all works...

Not sure if this is exactly your case David, but I think it's close...so, I will quote some of the further advice I sent to him, so he could gain some knowledge about HF radio / noises / radiowave propagation, etc., while he is away from the boat / radio...

Most that are new to HF radio (whether it be "marine"/"SSB" or "ham") and/or have a new installation, end up having three basic issues:
a) "can't hear anything but static / noise"
b) "never been able to talk to anyone (except across the harbour)"
c) "nobody ever told me how this is supposed to work"

And, all 3 of these issues are usually traced back to "c" (the third issue) as well as the plethora of electrical and electronic devices that generate serious amounts of Radio-Frequency-Interference (RFI) these days!!

[I then recommended the same info as I'm writing here, above....and then , as he mentioned all the "noises" and his "ground", I added this...]

A few quick additional points...
a) notice I didn't mention your "ground"?
That's not because it isn't important, but that it is usually a fairly minor criteria....this surprises most folks, as it is seems many talk about it as some sort of "mystery" rather than science...
Fact is a good RF / Antenna Ground is important to optimal operation of the HF radio system on-board our boats, but it isn't the only factor....and most on-point, it is very well-researched, well-known and understood science, no mystery at all, so why debate about it...


b) I know that not being near the radio makes understanding all of these things difficult, and while the videos help, without the radio on / listening, etc., it can be confusing....
But, I often tell people to get in their car, tune in a local FM radio station for a few minutes, then switch to AM and tune around....find an AM station that is a bit "staticy" / weak, but still understandable....
Then drive around for a few listening to this station, and see how the signal fades in and out, hear how your surroundings effect the signal, see how being under, or near, power lines effects the signal, drive thru a business district or industrial park and then out a quiet country road, and see the difference???
Now, do this same thing when going out to dinner some evening (tell you wife, etc. that I said it is a must!)....leave when the sun is still up, and listening to a staticy AM station...drive home after dark, trying to listen to the same station, and tune around to hear others, too.... You'll see some BIG differences!

These differences between FM and AM, are similar to the difference between Marine VHF and Marine HF ("SSB") Radio....variations in noises and signal fading, is close to what you have on HF Radio (Marine SSB and Ham), and these day-to-night differences are also found when using HF radio (although not quite as pronounced).

{Remember that HF radio (Voice, DSC, text, fax, etc.) can send / receive info to/from all parts of the world 24/7 (depending on frequency choice), WITHOUT any fixed infrastructure nor any fees/subscriptions, etc....and most importantly allows everyone, everywhere to get your message instantly, which is very important in urgency or distress situations....
This is why HF radio (both HF-DSC and HF-SSB Voice) is a big part of the international GMDSS...it works, and works well....and there is no substitute for it, even in 2017!

BTW, the last survey I have (from 2014) done by the IMO and JComm, regarding commercial merchant shipping use of HF radio, shows >85% still used it daily!!! Almost all of this is: a) DSC-signalling, some then followed by SSB voice; and b) HF-WeFax reception....but they all use it, and these are big ships with big budgets, and big satellite terminals too....
Just some food for thought... }

After a couple car rides, and evenings out to dinner, watch a couple of the videos again....and I think things might start to become a bit clearer....
And then, when you get back to the boat, you might be ready to solve the problems quickly!

c) Finally, I cannot stress enough the ironic fact that most (~ 90%) of those who think they have an HF Radio (or ground) problem, with a new installation (or those new to HF radio), actually have none....
What they have are:
--- too much RFI (from on-board devices and/or marinas)
--- lack of understanding of HF Radiowave propagation (everyone needed to learn to sail, navigate, anchor the boat, etc....well, you need to learn the basics of radiowave propagation, too...it will only take an hour or so...)
--- no experience in using an HF radio (relying on other sailors, who are also ignorant)

David, I do hope the above helps you out?


6) And, if you desire even more info / education (and some pure fun/escape), then here are some additional videos...

"Offshore Weather" (sources and methods of obtaining good weather info, when offshore)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...zdjTJjHlChruyY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma1v...zdjTJjHlChruyY

"VHF-DSC"
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...J6QugtO2epizxF

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4PO...J6QugtO2epizxF

"Offshore Sailing" (a couple of my Atlantic crossings)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...KgTCj15iyl6qoY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-5P...KgTCj15iyl6qoY

Please let us know if you have any further questions, or need any specific points clarified.

Fair winds

John

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

David, 1) While some have given you some good input here, and this should be a indication that you will probably do better troubleshooting any minor issues yourself (with aid of those here, etc.)....I'd like to in-modestly point you to the resources / info / educational material that is right here..

John may be modest but I need not be on his behalf. He has provided more really good advice and guidance about HF/SSB than anyone else I can think of. I'm pleased to be his friend.

He's probably the only person on the Internet who writes longer posts than I do. *grin*

[ka4wja]

sck5, et al,
I don't want to drift this discussion off on tangents...
But, perhaps I can clarify things??
Dielectric grease is fine for this application...

Now, the loooonnnggg answer:

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Just to expand that a bit, dielectric grease is an insulator both electrically and as a moisture barrier and not to be confused with conductive grease which, in addition to what it's name implies, is also a moisture insulator and therefore preferable to dielectric grease.

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

I think it's a question of function. Dielectric is preferable if your intent is to eliminate moisture penetration into a connection.

Conductive grease increases efficacy of the bond within the connection and has the collateral benefit of doing what dielectric grease does.

1) Dielectric grease is recommended and used in many applications to prevent moisture intrusion and corrosion....and is also used in some applications where (ironically) an electrical connection needs to be maintained as well...but, this electrical connection is NOT done thru the dielectric grease, but by the direct contact of the metallic terminals, usually held tight against each other by physical force (screw, nut-n-bolt, hose-clamp, etc.), so the "grease" is squeezed out of the way of the actual metal to metal contact, allowing low-resistive electrical connections...and this grease is a perfectly acceptable way to keep moisture from intruding into this connection, but...
But, it won't stay put on its own....you need to have some sort of covering / weather-proofing, otherwise it's all but a wasted effort after a few days!

Another example of this dielectric grease being used where laypersons might think odd....is in a coaxial cable connector junction....a liberal amount of silicone grease / dielectric grease in coax connector-to-connector junction has been a recommended practice for decades (think I first read it in 1972....but it goes back further than that)!!! (and it works)...
This is an example where "conductive grease" would be a big problem, as this could "short-out" the coaxial connection, shorting the center-conductor to the shield....and this would be a big no-no So, dielectric grease is used here...

I prefer GE 100% pure silicone grease....you can buy it at home improvement stores, electrical supply houses, amazon, etc...but there are other brands too....
Super Lube 3 oz. Tube Silicone Hi-Dielectric & Vacuum Grease-91003 - The Home Depot


Those thinking of "tef-gel" and Alum - to - Stainless applications, might think dielectric grease doesn't allow any electrical connection, but it does....just blocks enough that the very slight flow of alum atoms across the junction to the SS is hampered....although, if you ask a chemist, a material scientist, and an EE to all get together to discuss this, it might be a fun night, I'm not really up to that, today!


2) As for "conductive grease"....yep, it does have its applications (although fewer than the marketing hype will tell ya!)
And, I've also been using it since the 1970's!
My favorite is Penetrox-A....which you can buy at any electrical supply house or most electronics shops...
https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-p8a
This stuff works GREAT!! But, it is messy!! Really messy!
Works on all metals, as well as dissimilar metal-to-metal connections, where you must maintain excellent electrical connections, even under water...
(I use on antenna parts, and ground terminals, etc....I have it on my copper strap-to-Dynaplate connections, and copper strap - to - keel bolt connections....last years, even in the bilge!)

Some recommend Noalox...cuz it's cheaper...but either one works...
Ideal Noalox Anti-Oxidant 8 oz. Squeeze Bottle (Standard Package, 2 Bottles)-30-030 - The Home Depot


Okay, I think that should clear up the confusion...
But, if anyone wants to read more about this, here's a page from an old friend..
https://www.w8ji.com/dielectric_grea...ive_grease.htm


Fair winds..

John

[ka4wja]

Thanks Dave!
I was typing about dielectric grease when your kind works posted.
Fair winds to ya', my friend!
John

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

sck5, et al,
I don't want to drift this discussion off on tangents...
But, perhaps I can clarify things??
Dielectric grease is fine for this application...

Now, the loooonnnggg answer:

1) Dielectric grease is recommended and used in many applications to prevent moisture intrusion and corrosion....and is also used in some applications where (ironically) an electrical connection needs to be maintained as well...but, this electrical connection is NOT done thru the dielectric grease, but by the direct contact of the metallic terminals, usually held tight against each other by physical force (screw, nut-n-bolt, hose-clamp, etc.), so the "grease" is squeezed out of the way of the actual metal to metal contact, allowing low-resistive electrical connections...and this grease is a perfectly acceptable way to keep moisture from intruding into this connection, but...
But, it won't stay put on its own....you need to have some sort of covering / weather-proofing, otherwise it's all but a wasted effort after a few days!

Another example of this dielectric grease being used where laypersons might think odd....is in a coaxial cable connector junction....a liberal amount of silicone grease / dielectric grease in coax connector-to-connector junction has been a recommended practice for decades (think I first read it in 1972....but it goes back further than that)!!! (and it works)...
This is an example where "conductive grease" would be a big problem, as this could "short-out" the coaxial connection, shorting the center-conductor to the shield....and this would be a big no-no So, dielectric grease is used here...

I prefer GE 100% pure silicone grease....you can buy it at home improvement stores, electrical supply houses, amazon, etc...but there are other brands too....
Super Lube 3 oz. Tube Silicone Hi-Dielectric & Vacuum Grease-91003 - The Home Depot


Those thinking of "tef-gel" and Alum - to - Stainless applications, might think dielectric grease doesn't allow any electrical connection, but it does....just blocks enough that the very slight flow of alum atoms across the junction to the SS is hampered....although, if you ask a chemist, a material scientist, and an EE to all get together to discuss this, it might be a fun night, I'm not really up to that, today!


2) As for "conductive grease"....yep, it does have its applications (although fewer than the marketing hype will tell ya!)
And, I've also been using it since the 1970's!
My favorite is Penetrox-A....which you can buy at any electrical supply house or most electronics shops...
https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-p8a
This stuff works GREAT!! But, it is messy!! Really messy!
Works on all metals, as well as dissimilar metal-to-metal connections, where you must maintain excellent electrical connections, even under water...
(I use on antenna parts, and ground terminals, etc....I have it on my copper strap-to-Dynaplate connections, and copper strap - to - keel bolt connections....last years, even in the bilge!)

Some recommend Noalox...cuz it's cheaper...but either one works...
Ideal Noalox Anti-Oxidant 8 oz. Squeeze Bottle (Standard Package, 2 Bottles)-30-030 - The Home Depot


Okay, I think that should clear up the confusion...
But, if anyone wants to read more about this, here's a page from an old friend..
https://www.w8ji.com/dielectric_grea...ive_grease.htm


Fair winds..

John

What confusion?

[admiralslater]

Boy thanks for all the replies and now I know more about grease as well. I was out of wifi range for a couple of days . I will sit and watch the videos .
The forum is great for this stuff
David

[ka4wja]

David,
You're very welcome...

I know "videos" get a lot of interest, and are certainly helpful....but I caution everyone to remember they are not a substitute for books, manuals, etc...and also be sure to read the references / links in the "sticky"...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tc-133496.html


And, BTW, if you don't have good internet access on-board, don't forget that you can download the videos that are important to you, from YouTube, when/where you do have internet access, store 'em on your computer, and play them whenever you need. And, since these just show the display, buttons, etc. and some of Nav Station, WeFax Charts, etc. they are all "standard definition" (360p), and therefore are fairly small files to download!

I'm usually not one to recommend software, but I've found "savefrom" to work great...
The fastest free YouTube Downloader


Fair winds.

John