SSB Stopped Working

[cburger]

Ok so here's the rub the Sea222 and tuner I installed today came off ebay, got the radio and 1212B tuner cost a little over $500. I bought it to replace the Sea222 that came with the boat and stopped working for no apparent reason and considering Sea wanted $600.00 to bench test the components and the final bill could go much higher considering what they had to do, replacing the radio and tuner on ebay seemed like a good way to go. So prior to starting the installation today I powered up the unit to see it was working, lights come on, and the radio goes through its test modes and the channel is displayed, so ZI figure good to go and move ahead with the complete installation, once finish I sit down in the nav station and realize the display has gone dark, no sound, no nothing, this is the same thing that the other radio was doing, I took the housing off to check the fuses all good and put a tester to the circuit board and have juice. I am pulling my hair out and haven't the slightest idea how to proceed. I am wondering by messing around with the unit if I have somehow put it into some kind of sleep mode, help her is appreciated.
__________________

[Ex-Calif]

Does it work again when back on bench power?

My mind jumped to different power supplies - bench and panel.

Maybe high resistance in the panel supply and it isn't getting the current it needs...

[kentobin]

If I read you correctly you powered up the unit with nothing attached and the display at least lit up. Then you did the install and the display doesn't even come up now.

You can always use a temporary jumper from the battery directly to the radio if you suspect a problem with your dc at the radio.

But before you do that disconnect everything except what was attached to the radio when the display was working. Just because a fuse wasn't blown doesn't mean you don't have a circuit seeing a short or a large current draw that shouldn't be there and won't allow the radio to power up.

I agree that there's a good chance that both radios failed for the same reason. Best scenario is you fix a problem and now have two good radios. Wish I needed one now. :-)

Let us know what fixes it.

[Ex-Calif]

Did you change anything else on in the electrical system recently?

Another idea is that you rearranged solar and now have like 17 volts on the DC bus and the radio (while not consuming amps and blowing fuses) is seeing a voltage it doesn't like - high or low...

[ka4wja]

cburger,
Sorry to hear of your troubles...

I grasp the initial part of what you wrote....
You bought a used Sea 222 transceiver and 1212B tuner off ebay, for $500....to replace an original Sea 222 (and tuner?), that came with your boat, but the original one apparently did not work...
(correct me here if I'm misunderstanding you)


But, I'm not clear on some things here, please help me understand you correctly???

1- Did you do any tests to the original radio, other than calling SEA??

2- Please give more details as to what both/each of your SEA radios is doing or not doing...




3- You somehow temporarily connected the replacement radio and it worked, and you heard stations on-the-air?

Originally Posted by cburger

So prior to starting the installation today I powered up the unit to see it was working, lights come on, and the radio goes through its test modes and the channel is displayed, so ZI figure good to go and move ahead with the complete installation

4- Or did you just power it up and got the display to illuminate with various channel numbers, etc.?




5- You write: "once finish I sit down in the nav station and realize the display has gone dark, no sound, no nothing, this is the same thing that the other radio was doing",please confirm that you powered down and disconnected the dc power from the radio and tuner, before you proceeded with the installation!!

Originally Posted by cburger

So prior to starting the installation today I powered up the unit to see it was working, lights come on, and the radio goes through its test modes and the channel is displayed, so ZI figure good to go and move ahead with the complete installation, once finish I sit down in the nav station and realize the display has gone dark, no sound, no nothing, this is the same thing that the other radio was doing

6- Also please confirm that this is EXACTLY what the other (original) SEA 222 is doing???


7- Please confirm that you DO have the radio connected directly to your house battery bank, and NOT thru a distribution panel / breaker panel, bus, etc..

Originally Posted by cburger

I took the housing off to check the fuses all good and put a tester to the circuit board and have juice. I am pulling my hair out and haven't the slightest idea how to proceed. I am wondering by messing around with the unit if I have somehow put it into some kind of sleep mode, help her is appreciated.

8- It has been 15 years or more since I've worked with a SEA transceiver, and I honestly don't recall much about them except that they were simple to use by laypersons and appeared well made...
Bill, btrayors here on Cruiser's Forum, may have better / more recent info and advice for specifically regarding the SEA 222....but, I'm not aware of any "sleep" mode on any unit...


EDIT:::
I just did a quick Google search and found the SEA 222 manual on-line....
http://static2.rigreference.com/manu...ors-manual.pdf
In case, you don't have the manual...there it is....
(I'll look at it later, to see if there is something that sticks out to me as a possible issue for you to look for...)



--- But, I do recall the 222 had a membrane-type keypad (sort of a "soft-touch" kind of keypad), which would have a limited lifespan....and as such just may be the proximate cause of BOTH of your SEA 222 radio's issues....

--- Also, there were various key sequences to be pressed that placed you into the "program mode", etc...

Perhaps either one, or both of these things are what has happened to your SEA 222's???



9- But, here are a few generic tips...
a) remove ALL electrical power from both the SEA 222 and the SEA 1212....
b) make sure you have a good clean, direct, connection from the SEA 222 power cord to your house battery bank...
c) then plug-in only the SEA 222, and turn power on...

If it powers up....good...
If not, then we need to investigate further...


Until, I get clarifications / answers to the above, there's little more I can do...so, please advise accordingly...

John
s/v Annie Laurie


{P.S. As has been posted many times, ebay is not a place laypersons should look for "tech" stuff....there is just too many things that can set-off alarm bells of seasoned operators, but are unknown to most...
And, sorry to write this....but, remember that the SEA 222 is a fairly old radio and not one that I'd recommend!!
Sometimes looking for "bargains" are really the most expensive way to shop!!}

[cburger]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

cburger,
Sorry to hear of your troubles...

I grasp the initial part of what you wrote....
You bought a used Sea 222 transceiver and 1212B tuner off ebay, for $500....to replace an original Sea 222 (and tuner?), that came with your boat, but the original one apparently did not work...
(correct me here if I'm misunderstanding you)


But, I'm not clear on some things here, please help me understand you correctly???

1- Did you do any tests to the original radio, other than calling SEA??

2- Please give more details as to what both/each of your SEA radios is doing or not doing...




3- You somehow temporarily connected the replacement radio and it worked, and you heard stations on-the-air? 4- Or did you just power it up and got the display to illuminate with various channel numbers, etc.?




5- You write: "once finish I sit down in the nav station and realize the display has gone dark, no sound, no nothing, this is the same thing that the other radio was doing",please confirm that you powered down and disconnected the dc power from the radio and tuner, before you proceeded with the installation!! 6- Also please confirm that this is EXACTLY what the other (original) SEA 222 is doing???


7- Please confirm that you DO have the radio connected directly to your house battery bank, and NOT thru a distribution panel / breaker panel, bus, etc..8- It has been 15 years or more since I've worked with a SEA transceiver, and I honestly don't recall much about them except that they were simple to use by laypersons and appeared well made...
Bill, btrayors here on Cruiser's Forum, may have better / more recent info and advice for specifically regarding the SEA 222....but, I'm not aware of any "sleep" mode on any unit...


EDIT:::
I just did a quick Google search and found the SEA 222 manual on-line....
http://static2.rigreference.com/manu...ors-manual.pdf
In case, you don't have the manual...there it is....
(I'll look at it later, to see if there is something that sticks out to me as a possible issue for you to look for...)



--- But, I do recall the 222 had a membrane-type keypad (sort of a "soft-touch" kind of keypad), which would have a limited lifespan....and as such just may be the proximate cause of BOTH of your SEA 222 radio's issues....

--- Also, there were various key sequences to be pressed that placed you into the "program mode", etc...

Perhaps either one, or both of these things are what has happened to your SEA 222's???



9- But, here are a few generic tips...
a) remove ALL electrical power from both the SEA 222 and the SEA 1212....
b) make sure you have a good clean, direct, connection from the SEA 222 power cord to your house battery bank...
c) then plug-in only the SEA 222, and turn power on...

If it powers up....good...
If not, then we need to investigate further...


Until, I get clarifications / answers to the above, there's little more I can do...so, please advise accordingly...

John
s/v Annie Laurie


{P.S. As has been posted many times, ebay is not a place laypersons should look for "tech" stuff....there is just too many things that can set-off alarm bells of seasoned operators, but are unknown to most...
And, sorry to write this....but, remember that the SEA 222 is a fairly old radio and not one that I'd recommend!!
Sometimes looking for "bargains" are really the most expensive way to shop!!}

I went with another Sea222 because the original radio on the boat was this model, and like robust, simple to operate equipment.

The individual that sold me the equipment on ebay seems completely legitimate and worked me through ohms law last evening and we tracked down a bad fuse and the unit fired up immediately, the downside is that the other unit this one replaced is more than likely working fine.

So I have the radio powered up and have worked through some of the listed channels in the manual and am not getting any reception, I also am not able to get the antenna tuner to recognize the radio, I checked the power at the antenna tuner this evening and have 13volts, when I connected the antenna wire to the backstay this weekend noticed fairly substantial corrosion, copper strands all black and am thinking this may be an issue. Am not sure that my copper ground strap that I tied into a bronze through hull is working either and wondering if that may be an issue, besides being a complete rookie with this equipment.

Thanks all for your imput.

[ka4wja]

cburger,
I'm glad you got it turned on (and working?)...
But am confused and concerned about 2 things...
1- blown fuses are a sign of a problem.....not exactly sure what, as I still don't have many details to work with...but I suspect either a radio problem (a bad thing), or a wiring/installation issue (which can be easily corrected / avoided)

2- you wrote that you checked the fuses and all were fine?

Originally Posted by cburger

I took the housing off to check the fuses all good and put a tester to the circuit board and have juice.

And, you "had juice" inside the radio??
So, it should've worked....and I wonder what fuses were bad, and how did they blow??




3- There are many possible reasons for both blown fuses and for why you cannot get any reception....
I cannot really give you detailed advice until I have more details to work with...sorry!!
One of the most important details to know is, do you have any experience in HF radio communications??? And, have you watched the videos (especially #4, #5, #6, #9, and #10)??

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ll-114734.html



As for specifics, until I have more info, see below in red....

Originally Posted by cburger

I went with another Sea222 because the original radio on the boat was this model, and like robust, simple to operate equipment.
As long as you understand and accept the SEA 222 is an old / obsolete radio...and no matter how good/honest the guy selling it is, many of these older SEA radios had hard lives in small commercial fishing vessels, etc. and unlike some other older/well-cared-for radios, this would not be anything I'd recommend to anyone...(especially because you can find a clean, Icom M-700Pro for about $500!!! or the occasional used M-802, for about $1000....or a new M-802 for about $1800...)



The individual that sold me the equipment on ebay seems completely legitimate and worked me through ohms law last evening and we tracked down a bad fuse and the unit fired up immediately, the downside is that the other unit this one replaced is more than likely working fine.
It's good that the seller is helping....(and that is rare!)
But, I'm still confused by the "fuse" and "power" issues...as you wrote that the fuses were good and you had juice in the radio.....
It is possible that this is a red herring...BUT...
But, this maybe telling of an intermittent issue???


Sorry, I cannot delve deeper without the answers to earlier questions...
I have no idea how your radio is installed / wired...so I cannot offer further detailed/learned advice, until I know more details!!



So I have the radio powered up and have worked through some of the listed channels in the manual and am not getting any reception,
This is NOT surprising at all...most that are new to HF radio are unaware of what it sounds like, what it is NOT supposed to sound like....nor do they understand what stations at what time and frequency to listen for / contact...
That fact, combined with probably RFI (on-board your boat AND from other boats in marinas/boat yards, and from a nearby shore), means that many (most?) times new HF users mention they are not getting reception, there is little or nothing wrong with their radios...

Do not use the freqs/channels in the manual as a "guide"...as this is an OLD radio, with an OLD manual....and except for WLO, you won't be able to contact anyone else on any marine duplex channels....(and understand that while the USCG broadcasts weather on their duplex channels, they do NOT monitor them!!! so, you cannot use these channels to contact them, nor anyone else!!)
I apologize if this sounds rude (not my intention) but you should understand that this is an OLD radio, with an OLD manual, and a lot has changed in 20 years...


Have you watched the videos???
If not, please do so, as they WILL not only help you understand what you should be hearing, what you shouldn't be hearing, what you won't hear, etc. as well as allow to understand what questions to ask and what info to provide....



I also am not able to get the antenna tuner to recognize the radio, I checked the power at the antenna tuner this evening and have 13volts,
I believe the SEA tuners are like the SCG tuners, and just require 12vdc, and RF power from the radio, in order to work...
So, there is really nothing to recognize until attempting to transmit....
So, this doesn't alarm me at this point..



when I connected the antenna wire to the backstay this weekend noticed fairly substantial corrosion, copper strands all black and am thinking this may be an issue. Am not sure that my copper ground strap that I tied into a bronze through hull is working either and wondering if that may be an issue
Black copper is, of course, not good....and it is very highly resistive (especially to RF)!!!
I feel a bit bad here, as I assumed that this was a new installation..

Best rule-of-thumb is to REPLACE ALL WIRING!!!!
NEVER assume that old wiring is good!!
Wire is cheap, especially compared to the value of human life....

Buy some new GTO-15 wire...(available at chandleries, neon sign places, many electrical supply houses, Amazon, West Marine, etc. etc...)

Buy some new copper strapping....(I recommend Georgia Copper....you can buy it many places, but do NOT buy cheap/thin copper foil at chandleries/West Marine)
GEORGIA COPPER - Copper ground strap
GEORGIA COPPER - Copper ground strap

25' of 3" 0.012" wide copper strapping is only $69...




besides being a complete rookie with this equipment.
Please answer all the questions from earlier, watch the videos, and THEN we'll see what's up with your radios...

Fair winds.

John
s/v Annie Laurie

[cburger]

John,
\\
Thanks for working through the problem with me, I have been getting homer very late from work and am wiped, I will answer all questions when I have a fresh brain and look forward to the learning process.

CB

[cburger]

[QUOTE=ka4wja;1576114]cburger,
I'm glad you got it turned on (and working?)...
But am confused and concerned about 2 things...
1- blown fuses are a sign of a problem.....not exactly sure what, as I still don't have many details to work with...but I suspect either a radio problem (a bad thing), or a wiring/installation issue (which can be easily corrected / avoided)

The seller of the equipment had me do an Ohm test on all three fuses and determined that one of them was bad, as soon as replaced unit fire
right up, my recollection of events is that after installing the radio in its bracket and attempting to push it back against the back wall of the nav station that the radio died. They space is tight and the wires get pushed on as a result and am thinking that I tweaked the power supply and shorted out the fuse, and am hopeful the same thing happened with the other unit and that will work fine as well, moving forward I will try to be careful with the forces exerted on the cables.


2- you wrote that you checked the fuses and all were fine?And, you "had juice" inside the radio??
So, it should've worked....and I wonder what fuses were bad, and how did they blow??




3- There are many possible reasons for both blown fuses and for why you cannot get any reception....
I cannot really give you detailed advice until I have more details to work with...sorry!!
One of the most important details to know is, do you have any experience in HF radio communications??? And, have you watched the videos (especially #4, #5, #6, #9, and #10)??

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/icom-m-802-instr-videos-basic-adv-and-live-dsc-distress-call-114734.html


I really am new to this equipment, however have some base knowledge. As mentioned I have been able to get some radio reception on a couple of different frequencies so know this part of the system is working, however I have not been able to get the antenna tuner to give the radio indication that it working and will be sorting that issue out next. The seller has indicated that I should here the relays in the tuner making clicking noises when the mike is keyed regardless of a potentially poor ground from the tuner and will be looking at this next. Will replace the corroded GTO 15 wire and copper ground strap and probably tie into the large Dynaplate
rather than the through hull like now. The good news is the seller has indicated he will replace the tuner if it turns it to be bad. I have not had a chance to look at the videos you have sent along yet and am looking forward to viewing them at some point over the weekend. I completely understand that using my SSB is way more entailed than turning on my VHF, Thanks for all you support John.

[ka4wja]

cb,
You're very welcome, I'm happy to help!

[BTW, please take a close look at your GTO-15 wire....as GTO-15 is stranded 14 ga. TINNED copper....and it should NOT turn black, like BARE copper does when corroding....
I'm wondering if you do have GTO-15 wire, or some other wire (not coax, I hope), etc...]


1) Take care with the wiring, as you may end up blowing more than fuses!

And remember, the best way to wire up anything is to do with the power OFF (other end of the wires disconnected)....after everything is wired/connected properly, only then apply power to the power wires....then do some initial testing, then disconnect the power, finish the final install, and finally reconnect the power, and test/use the system as desired...



2) As for being new to HF communications, no worries....we'll get you going with it!

And, I'm trying to think of a way to write this, that doesn't sound like an arrogant jerk....but I can't, so here goes....

BEFORE you go any further at all, in your "SSB project", take 20 minutes out of your day, while you're taking a break, having a cup 'o coffee, eating a sandwich, etc. etc., and WATCH some of those videos!!!

They WILL show you / allow you to hear, exactly what the various signals sound like, exactly what some "noises" sound like, the difference between "natural" atmospheric noise and "man-made" noise (RFI), as well as allow you to hear different stations/signals live on-the-air, on various frequencies / channels.....ALL of this is accompanied by narration telling you exactly what you are listening to, and why/how-to use these signals, improve them, etc. and details about noises, etc....

Trying to "figure out if the damn radio is working, or not", before you understand what it is supposed to do / sound like, is a real pain!!!
But, if you watch a couple videos, hear what the various noises are, listen to the different stations on a variety of frequencies / channels, all along with detailed explanations (in layman's terms), and being able to see the exact channel / frequency displayed and the varying signal strengths, etc., this WILL allow you to better understand if your radio is working and evaluate how well it is working!!

I cannot stress this enough....
Save yourself the aggravation, spend 15 - 30 minutes and watch a few videos!!!!
(especially #5, #9, #4, #10, and #6 IN THAT ORDER)

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/icom-m-802-instr-videos-basic-adv-and-live-dsc-distress-call-114734.html





3) cb, I'm a bit confused now....and I really am not sure what (or even if) the radio problem is...sorry..

This mornings posting here, is quite different that what you originally wrote on Sunday, and different than what you wrote on Tuesday???

Originally Posted by cburger

I really am new to this equipment, however have some base knowledge. As mentioned I have been able to get some radio reception on a couple of different frequencies so know this part of the system is working,

I can find no mention at all that you did have reception and that you know part of the system is working...





Back on Sunday, your wrote this:

Originally Posted by cburger

I figure good to go and move ahead with the complete installation, once finish I sit down in the nav station and realize the display has gone dark, no sound, no nothing, this is the same thing that the other radio was doing, I took the housing off to check the fuses all good and put a tester to the circuit board and have juice. I am pulling my hair out and haven't the slightest idea how to proceed.

I understood this to mean the radio was dead??





And, on Tuesday, you wrote this:

Originally Posted by cburger

...we tracked down a bad fuse and the unit fired up immediately, the downside is that the other unit this one replaced is more than likely working fine.

So I have the radio powered up and have worked through some of the listed channels in the manual and am not getting any reception, I also am not able to get the antenna tuner to recognize the radio,

I understood this to mean that after changing fuses (which supposed checked good) the radio does power up, but you hear nothing at all???



Please understand that I am trying to help, but I cannot determine from your postings exactly what is "turning ON", and what isn't....nor what is "working", and what isn't...
So, with that in mind, I'm going to leave you with a few additional tips...

If you follow these in order, and report back your findings, we have an excellent chance of getting your radio system working for you in short order...(if you keep taking a "poke around and see what's up" approach, I'm afraid you may be in for a LONG and frustrating time....and I'm not sure I'd be of any help!)


a) Watch the videos...
b) Disconnect EVERYTHING...
c) Plug any random length of copper wire (20' - 35' long), into the antenna connector (ONLY the center of coax connector) on the rear of the SEA 222...
d) Throw the other end of this wire out a hatch and string it up on a flag halyard (or any halyard), just so most of it is up in the air, as far away from your mast and other wire rigging as possible....(any convenient piece of wire will do!)
e) Connect 12vdc power wiring to the radio...
f) Turn On the radio....
g) listen to the static / noise, and turn OFF everything else on board, switch off all your breakers and your main battery switch, etc.

h) Select ITU channel 1212 and listen at the top of the hour for Shipcom's WLO....listen for their identification and traffic lists at the top of each hour, and weather 6 - 8 times each day....
HF SSB Radiotelephone, Telex and Email Frequencies and Channels
i) Select other WLO channels as needed, depending on time of day...

j) Select ITU channel 816 (or other USCG channels depending on time of day) at the appropriate times and listen for NMN, (USCG offshore and hi-seas weather)....
USCG HF Voice
k) Select other USCG channels as needed, depending on time of day...

l) Select WWV at 15mhz (and/or 20mhz) daytime....and 10mhz (and maybe even 5 MHz or 15mhz) nighttime.....
NIST Radio Station WWV

[Unlike cruiser's nets, or ham radio nets, I recommend these particular stations, and frequencies, because they are all strong / high-power stations....that are always on the exact correct/proper frequency...and usually transmit at their prescribed times (+/- a minute or two)....and they all have unique characteristics / synthesized voices, identifiers, time ticks, etc. so you immediately know you ARE hearing the right station, on the right channel/frequency...
Assuming you are still in the NY area, if your radio is working, you WILL get reception on these freq/channels at the prescribed times...]

A good time to do this, is near the times that is NMN will be transmitting continuously for 30 - 40 minutes....such as at 0330z, 0930z, 1530z, and 2130z....listen for NMN at these times and select their various channels during these broadcasts to verify reception...
And, then tune in WLO at the top of the hour (or tune in WLO before NMN's weather broadcasts....either way works!)
Then, stop on 15mhz, etc. and listen to WWV...and try a few different WWV frequencies...


--- Once you have watched the videos, and verified your reception from WLO, NMN, and WWV...
--- Report back here....
--- Then and only then, proceed with troubleshooting any other issues/problems with the system...


[Please take note that you do NOT need to have any special knowledge to do any of the above steps....nor do you need a volt meter (although it is good practice to measure the voltage before and after you hook something up)....nor do you need any "ground system" at all, nor any special length of wire, nor any special kind of wire...
These steps/tests above, along with watching the above mentioned videos, will allow you to easily and quickly evaluate your radio....and you'll learn a lot in the process...
You know that old saying: "Give a man a fish, he eats for one day....teach a man to fish, and you feed him for life!"...]




4) I'd rather wait until you've watch the videos and verified your reception, etc. before proceeding further....as I'm confused as to what worked when, etc...

Originally Posted by cburger

however I have not been able to get the antenna tuner to give the radio indication that it working and will be sorting that issue out next.

5) This is correct, if you have switched to a different / not previously used channel/frequency....but, if you are on the same channel/freq as before the unit will not need to re-tune....and if you're on a previously used channel/freq, the unit should remember the tuning positions and you may not hear much in the way of relays switching (this is what modern tuners do, NOT sure about this old one, but it should be similar!)

Originally Posted by cburger

The seller has indicated that I should here the relays in the tuner making clicking noises when the mike is keyed regardless of a potentially poor ground from the tuner and will be looking at this next.

6) This is a good move, but I'd not recommend that you run around chasing various things to "improve", or looking for things to "fix", before you verify that the radio is working!!!
Bottom line, you will still get reception and the tuner should still work, even with a corroded GTO-15 connection and grounding strap...(although, I'm still concerned that you may not actually have GTO-15 wire....don't worry about that until you've followed all the steps/tests above..)
No, it won't be great, but it will STILL work to some extent even without the backstay connected (just the GTO-15) nor any "grounding strap" at all...
So, verify the rig is working FIRST, then verify your reception, then troubleshoot the tuner (all of which WILL work with a corroded GTO-15 connection and no ground at all)....
And, only then proceed with the improvements / replace items...

Originally Posted by cburger

Will replace the corroded GTO 15 wire and copper ground strap and probably tie into the large Dynaplate

Originally Posted by cburger

rather than the through hull like now. The good news is the seller has indicated he will replace the tuner if it turns it to be bad.

7) cb, gain not wanting to come off as a jerk....but watching the videos and following the steps/tests above, should have been the first things to do...

Originally Posted by cburger

I have not had a chance to look at the videos you have sent along yet and am looking forward to viewing them at some point over the weekend. I completely understand that using my SSB is way more entailed than turning on my VHF,

And, don't feel bad if there are things that you don't quite understand....neither did I when I started in electronics and radio, over 40 years ago!!!
(yep, I started in the early 1970's....so, if i don't know what I'm doing by now, I should just shut up and go away!!






Fair winds and good luck...

John
s/v Annie Laurie

[cburger]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

cb,
You're very welcome, I'm happy to help!





7) cb, gain not wanting to come off as a jerk....but watching the videos and following the steps/tests above, should have been the first things to do...
And, don't feel bad if there are things that you don't quite understand....neither did I when I started in electronics and radio, over 40 years ago!!!
(yep, I started in the early 1970's....so, if i don't know what I'm doing by now, I should just shut up and go away!!






Fair winds and good luck...

John
s/v Annie Laurie

John,

I have figured out the reason for blowing fuses on both radios, the clearance between the back of the radios and the back of the nav station wall are to close and I was stressing the power inputs by pushing hard against the wires. I was actually able to get some reception on the radio, the tuner was shipped back to the man who sold it to me and is indicated that it is working correctly, the plan is to get new copper and GTO wire installed and have another go, am enjoying the process.

Thanks Again

[cburger]

I am getting ready to order copper strapping for the tuner ground and I have seen that Georgia Copper has different thicknesses and widths available. It appears that the old strapping was 2" wide. John can you indicate width and thickness I should purchase?

Thanks.

[El Rubio]

The RF ground, ideally will have a large surface area. The rf energy will travel along the surface of the conductor. It's called "skin effect" and is why strap is used. You'll also see braided wire used like this too. The size really depends how durable it needs to be. Copper foil would work, but will easily be damaged or corroded through in some environments. The larger the surface area, the better. Common sizes i've seen in land-based communications are 2inch and 4 inch wide. Make mechanical connections - nuts and bolts and solder. You can tin the connections first and solder together, but don't rely only on solder to hold the connection physically.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[ka4wja]

cburger,
I'm glad to read that you've got things figured out and working....
As for your RF ground connection....

Originally Posted by cburger

I am getting ready to order copper strapping for the tuner ground and I have seen that Georgia Copper has different thicknesses and widths available. It appears that the old strapping was 2" wide. John can you indicate width and thickness I should purchase?

1) In general, 0.022" thick strapping is difficult to work with, difficult to bend/lay-in-place, etc., but it is what I use...(I'm not a masochist, but I'm sort-of a radio nut, so I put up with the difficulties....
(oh, and I use 6" wide, 8' long piece for my primary RF ground connection from my tuner to my two Dynaplates....and a very short piece of 3" wide strapping attaching my metal tanks....and a long piece of 3" strapping running forward to the aft keel bolt....but, remember I'm a fanatic, and it's doubtful most would spend the time/effort/money to gain the minor improvements that might be gained with these additions...)



2) So with that in mind, you'd probably do okay with the 0.012" thick strapping....BUT..
But, please paint it / coat it, so it lasts a long time (decades)....remember, would you just lay a bare copper wire in your bilge and expect it to last a long time???
(remember to remove the paint/coating at the ends where you're making the connections....sandpaper and 3M scotchbrite works good, to get the copper nice and clean/shinny....oh, and don't forget the Penatrox-A conductive grease to weatherproof your strapping connections...)


3) Understand the "thickness" of the strapping does NOT effect its performance / effectiveness as a low inductance rf ground connection....it is its "width" (overall surface area) that makes it a low inductance RF ground connection....
So, if you can fit a 3" wide strapping, go with that...if you cannot fit anything wider than a 2" wide strapping, then use that...




4) There are entire books written on antenna grounds / RF grounds, etc....and I will not even attempt to go into these details here...but, El Rubio mentions something here that I think should be expanded on / explained...

Originally Posted by El Rubio

The RF ground, ideally will have a large surface area.

This is true, but when using a wide copper strap from the remote tuner to a direct sea water connection (which is what we are talking about here), it is the SEA WATER that we are using as our antenna ground / RF ground....the copper strapping is the low inductance connection TO the sea water, the copper strapping is not designed to BE the antenna ground / RF ground, but rather just the connection TO the sea water / antenna ground....(assuming the strapping is short, < 8' or so, it does this well...)

Although ANYTHING that conducts RF connected to the tuner's ground lug will allow RF antenna return currents to be better returned / circulated, reducing the RF resistance / inductance as close to the tuner's ground lug (base of the antenna) as possible improves this....hence why copper is used (it's a great conductor of RF)....
And, unless you can rig multiple, symmetrical, tuned radials above ground potential, using the Sea Water as your antenna ground / RF ground is typically going to be the best overall wideband/multiband antenna RF ground....and using wide copper strapping to connect to the sea water is best, and also can contribute some to better rf antenna return currents....


As I wrote above, entire books have been written on these subjects.....but I just wanted to clarify why copper strapping is recommended when using the sea water as your rf ground / antenna ground...


Oh BTW, you can also add large metal tanks, lead keels, metal toerails, pushpits, lifelines, etc. into your rf ground / antenna ground....and typically will have no harmful effects to your system....and this is typically a very good second choice for those who do not have a decent underwater metal for connecting to....(and is what some with sisterships to mine have done, as some have not installed Dynaplates as I have....due to our boats using Marelon thru-hulls...)





5) Braid is NEVER recommended....

Originally Posted by El Rubio

You'll also see braided wire used like this too.

Uncovered braid is never used as an RF conductor....
Both because of easy-to-see corrosion issues, and also primarily because of issues with the small wires making/breaking contact and causing significant noise in receiving systems, and LOTS of transmit RFI issues...
This should NEVER be used on-board....






I hope this helps..

fair winds...

John
s/v Annie Laurie

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

But, please paint it / coat it, so it lasts a long time (decades)

Given time, energy, and/or other resources I like to glass the copper down. Most customers don't go for the extra expense and accept they'll have to replace the strap periodically.