Starlink Beta Users HELP

[ka4wja]

Hello to all,


Although, some may think my pro-radio postings are somehow reflective of anti-sat-comm, but....in addition to being a "radio nut" and proponent of HF radio on-board offshore boats, regardless of whether sat comm is considered or not, please understand that I love sat comm (make a living from it!)....and in particular have a soft spot for Iridium....(I just don't think sat comm is a necessity for most sailing offshore)

{fyi, I was an early beta-user (quasi-alpha tester), with my brother, for Iridium over 20 years ago....my brother was a senior test engineer with Motorola, and we tested/used the old clunky Moto sat phones for almost a year.....I now own a 9555...}

So, despite what some may think, my love and cheer-leading of HF Radio ("marine SSB", ham, etc.) does not interfere with my appreciation of sat comm...those that look closely usually see this as obvious, as they do two completely different things. And, in addition to professional sat comm experience, I've used and/or installed Iridium, INMARSAT, and VSAT's over the years...on land and on boats...

So although, I'm still firmly in the camp that sees little need for internet access when at sea / on passage (most find internet access via terrestrial-based cellular/wireless networks, and/or wi-fi....when in port or near-shore, to be adequate), I do understand that some of my fellow sailors have a desire for access at sea.


So, with that prefaced.....Starlink is certainly a step forward....continuing the evolution of sat comm, but I'm not sure it's "revolutionary"?

Originally Posted by jmc42

Even if it won't work in a storm, it will revolutionize internet access at sea.

And, if the intro price of $99/month holds and there is no throttling-back of data speed, etc., then this will be the cheapest maritime sat comm "broadband" service available....(although, I suspect a price increase will come after early-adopters jump-in)





But, let's not forget that sat comm (and offshore internet access) has been available to sailors for decades now...(specifics of maritime sat comm internet), it's just been costly, and in the distant past also bigger/heavier than most small cruising boats could accommodate...

a) Yes, 20 years ago INMARSAT B and M, etc. weren't exactly "speedy", but then again neither were most internet connections on land 20 years ago...and with modern BGAN and FleetBroadband, etc. they're pretty good now...

b) And, Iridium internet service ("openport" and now "Certus") has been available for over 10 years now....(and, fyi, CERTUS is the fastest L-Band service available.)

c) And, maritime VSAT internet service (while not L-Band) has been available for decades as well....and, while equipment is wicked expensive, speed is fast!!



Of course, the main reasons that Starlink is being hyped as "revolutionary" are:
--- low-cost equipment
--- low-cost data/internet service
--- easy-to-install (although so are Iridium Certus, etc.)


So, the real attraction here for most is: Saving Money!




And, saving money is great....just be aware of the "limits" of Starlink....

--- It's a Ku-Band (and Ka-Band) system....freqs of 11Ghz/12Ghz and up....similar to DirecTv, DISH Network, SkyTV, etc....and, this means usually no signals in heavy weather, and probably little or intermittent service even in moderate rain...

--- Just like most sat comm terminals, it uses a good deal of electrical power....and on-land, this is of little consequence, but for most small-boat sailors, this can be a deal-breaker...

Originally Posted by Jon Hacking

The current user terminals consume almost 150W, or 12A@12v (300Ah/day).

--- Initial system deployment does not have inter-satellite links, therefore is only usable to users in line-of-sight of a satellite that is also in line-of-sight of a ground station (just like GlobalStar)


--- Latency is lower than the GEO sat systems like INMARSAT, but even when the next generation Starlink sats are launched and active (the ones with "inter-satellite links"), similar to Iridium latency will vary...



Now, if all those limitations are acceptable to users, and/or the trade-off of low-cost broadband internet service at sea is worth those limitations, then when maritime versions of Starlink are available, go-for-it!!

FYI, you may take note that I didn't mention issues with tracking while in-motion? That's 'cuz it's not an issue, except that there probably is (or will be) some software (and possibly rate gyro sensors?) in a mobile / maritime Starlink terminal, that allow tracking of the satellites while taking into account the motion of the vessel / vehicle / aircraft....heck KVH has been doing that with their flat phased-array DirecTV "in-motion viewing" system, for years now! So, although it's possible that the initial land-based / fixed-mount Starlink terminals might not have the software (and/or hardware) to do this, any maritime/vehicle Starlink terminal will certainly have it...


In my opinion, my "guess", the stumbling-block for most sailors is going to be the power consumption....I think it just won't make sense for most...

Originally Posted by Jon Hacking

The current user terminals consume almost 150W, or 12A@12v (300Ah/day).
Static stations can turn theirs off to save power, but it's not clear if mobile users can, as there's currently no back-channel to say "I'm here & I need service." The system has to track you as you change cells.

As for turning the Starlink system on and using only when needed (having it scan, find satellites, and make connection, and then allow to use it), I suppose this is possible / likely to work okay, we will see how well it works for the end users...



I do hope my brief comments here are useful to those looking into internet access at sea / on-passage.

Fair winds.

John

[Chotu]

@ka4wja

Like every single thing this guy does. Literally none of it is revolutionary and he didn’t invent any of it.

It’s rehashing old technology (one of the first cars ever built in the 1800s was an electric car). It’s taking the old technology, Steve Jobsing the design to look minimalist and then creating legions of fan boys and girls through media hype, eluding to being some kind of technical genius.

The guy is a genius. A genius at fund raising, marketing, publicity and branding.

The rest already existed and was glossed over and repackaged for the masses by his employees.

[B23iL23]

Nah - don't agree with that. Way too simplistic. You forget one thing - perfecting technology. As Steve Jobs said "Good artists copy; great artists steal". Jobs was great at taking ideas from others and perfecting them the "Apple way". Jobs was a marketeer first and last.

Musk didn't invent the electric car nor was he the first to land a rocket on it's tail. But he did perfect the tech - Tesla have the most efficient motors for the last 10 years and nothing could touch them. He was told he couldn't make re-usable rockets, and then when he did , he was told they would cost too much to re-furbish. Well he proved everyone wrong. Before he built electric cars he decided to build a network of charging stations because people needed to be sure they could charge anywhere. Cost a lot of $'s because it was built before they made money on the cars, but it sold a lot more cars.

He has degrees in economics and energy physics. He can talk to engineers and design stuff without asking anyone. He also understood from 10 years back that s/w was at the core of everything - so he built a really impressive s/w team at Tesla and SpaceX (something Boeing ignored and look at them now).

Why can Starlink work? Because he makes the rockets that launch them, plus he builds the sats all in-house and his s/w teams write all the code for everything. Others buy the rocket service and get the sats built for them (Oneweb, Inmarsat..) and so cost way more. When others want to make a change it takes 6 months of negotiating with different suppliers and then a big wad of $$ - SpaceX decide on a change and the next day it can be done at little or no additional cost. I heard that SpaceX update the s/w on their sats twice a day. That's really rapid development and it's what makes it very hard for others to compete.

Call it genius or just smart thinking, or perfecting what's come before, but he seems to have a knack for it.

As Musk says, he is just standing on the shoulders of giants.

Originally Posted by Chotu

@ka4wja

Like every single thing this guy does. Literally none of it is revolutionary and he didn’t invent any of it.

It’s rehashing old technology (one of the first cars ever built in the 1800s was an electric car). It’s taking the old technology, Steve Jobsing the design to look minimalist and then creating legions of fan boys and girls through media hype, eluding to being some kind of technical genius.

The guy is a genius. A genius at fund raising, marketing, publicity and branding.

The rest already existed and was glossed over and repackaged for the masses by his employees.

[Jon Hacking]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

... FYI, you may take note that I didn't mention issues with tracking while in-motion? That's 'cuz it's not an issue, except that there probably is (or will be) some software (and possibly rate gyro sensors?) in a mobile / maritime Starlink terminal, that allow tracking of the satellites while taking into account the motion of the vessel / vehicle / aircraft....heck KVH has been doing that with their flat phased-array DirecTV "in-motion viewing" system, for years now! So, although it's possible that the initial land-based / fixed-mount Starlink terminals might not have the software (and/or hardware) to do this, any maritime/vehicle Starlink terminal will certainly have it.
...
As for turning the Starlink system on and using only when needed (having it scan, find satellites, and make connection, and then allow to use it), I suppose this is possible / likely to work okay, we will see how well it works for the end users...

Fair winds, John

Thanks for this, John. I've also been a HAM (KD7NDG) for almost 40 years, & a fan of SSB, & we've owned an Iridium phone since 2001, although we found the service too $$ & haven't used it since 2004, as Winlink has (barely, but adequately) covered our needs.

I agree with you that tracking a bird with a phased array beam is pretty easy. Hopefully UTs will have the necessary sensors to compensate for the boat's motion. Luckily, those sensors have been around for a while.

You're now the 2nd person I've heard to claim that the StarLink UTs could scan to find satellites. If the satellite isn't aiming its beam at you, it won't be able to hear you very well, sort of like your Yagi pointing the wrong way. Can you explain how this is supposed to work?

• What's the beam-width of the UT?
• What's the spacing of the satellites?
• Can the birds receive a signal on their phased arrays when their beams aren't pointed at your boat?
• Can (is?) the UT broadcasting a "I'm here & I need service" sort of signal on it's beam, & just waving that beam around hoping that a bird hears it & has the capacity (a spare beam) to aim back at you?

For a ground station, when you register with StarLink, they'll keep a beam on your cell 24x7. But I'd think getting a random bird to put a beam on you when there's no beam initially is a much tougher proposition.

Thanks!