Tired of Bugs in Navico Equipment

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by colemj

Yes, Navico was a brand in the 80's and 90's. I had a Navico tiller pilot in the 80's and a wheel pilot in the 90's. They used to compete very well with Autohelm.

Mark

I did not know that. Any connection to the present Navico company?

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[cburger]

Very weird one day working fine, next reading out knots, the only thing I can think of is both gauges are run to a common junction box and that's causing the issue.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I did not know that. Any connection to the present Navico company?

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

I just assumed it was the same, although the name could have been bought out and repurposed.

Mark

[cburger]

Originally Posted by colemj

I just assumed it was the same, although the name could have been bought out and repurposed.

Mark

I thought they were purchased by Simrad?

[colemj]

Originally Posted by cburger

I thought they were purchased by Simrad?

This could be the case because I think the original Navico was a British company, and Simrad is/was Dutch.

Mark

[Canibul]

Not sure when Simrad became Dutch, because for the 30 years I competed with them they were Definitely Norwegian. Them and Robertson both.

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

I was not nearly as patient as Dockhead. My full suite of Simrad equipment lasted about 6 months before I removed it all and returned it to Navico for a refund for non-performance. Bug after bug after bug after bug. I reproduced, documented, and reported over 25, and they were unable to fix any of them in the 6 months I owned the equipment.

One thing I realized along the way is that the "Multi Function Display", or MFD, or "chart plotter" is a core part of the problem. And the even better thing that I finally realized is that I have absolutely no need or use for one. They are dead to me.

About 3 years ago I started using Coastal Explorer for all my charting, routing, and to drive my autopilot. From that point forward, all I ever used my MFD for was as a radar and fish finder display.

So in my new electronics setup, I have what I would call an integrated set of stand-alone devices, and it works really, really well.

- Coastal Explorer does all the charting, and supports one of the widest varieties of chart sources and manufacturers. I do all my planning, route creation, etc on it, and when under way it drives the auto pilot to follow my routes.

- All my instruments put data onto a combination of N2K and 0183, making the instrument data available to whoever wants to display or use it.

- The auto pilot gets nav info from CE, and instrument data from the network(s).

- My AIS tranceiver sends boat position reports to CE and two different radars

- There are two independent, stand alone radars, but they are linked to everything. AIS targets show on the radars, and when I lock onto a target with ARPA, that target shows up on my chart on Coastal Explorer.

- My fish finder is stand-alone, but networked so any other device can display my depth.

The only thing an MFD can do that this setup cannot is overlay the full radar return on my chart, but frankly I don't want that since it clutters up the chart. I prefer the clean icon and course/speed vector of the ARPA and AIS targets over an uncluttered chart.

Also, if you don't have an enclosed wheelhouse, which I know many do not, then finding a waterproof platform to run CE on can be a hassle, but a waterproof touch screen should do the trick....

You lost me when you said the two radars are stand alone but linked to everything. Can you explain this?

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by deluxe68

You lost me when you said the two radars are stand alone but linked to everything. Can you explain this?

Yes, "stand-alone" is a poor choice of words. "Dedicated radars" is probably a lot better. They are single function devices, yet can integrate with other devices via standard interfaces. What I don't get is radar overlay, i.e. the radar echo returns shown on the chart display. But any target that I acquire with ARPA on the radars lights up as an icon on CE, so I can see everything that I care about on the radar overlaid on the charts.

My own feelings about radar overlay on charts has evolved over the years. At first I felt it was essential. Showing radar returns on the chart put everything in context for me and made the radar info much easier to understand and utilize.

But the down side of radar overlay is that the echo's obscure things on the charts. For example, an echo return from a buoy can mast the chart info about the buoy like it's number or light pattern. Over time, this started to bother me more and more.

Then I started realizing that I was not always seeing echo returns because of all the other stuff on the chart. Magenta lines, depth numbers, bottom makeup, etc cluttered the display and radar echos didn't stand out as much as I would have liked. In heavy fog, I was really worrying that I was missing targets.

Then I stopped running with radar overlay. Echo returns stand out much better, and there is no cluttering of info on the chart. The only problem was correlating returns with things on the chart like buoys or small rock formations/islands. Once I discovered that I would simply click on them on the radar and an icon would pop up on CE in the location, it completely solved that problem.

What I finally realized is that this whole progression was really about becoming more comfortable reading a radar screen and being able to easily identify and correlate returns with chart items. When first starting off, it's not so easy, but over time you get better and better at it and it starts to become more second nature. Once you can look at a radar return and quickly correlate it with 90% of what's on the your chart plotter, then I think you'll find yourself always running radar in a separate screen rather than overlaying it on a chart.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

Yes, "stand-alone" is a poor choice of words. "Dedicated radars" is probably a lot better. They are single function devices, yet can integrate with other devices via standard interfaces. What I don't get is radar overlay, i.e. the radar echo returns shown on the chart display. But any target that I acquire with ARPA on the radars lights up as an icon on CE, so I can see everything that I care about on the radar overlaid on the charts.

My own feelings about radar overlay on charts has evolved over the years. At first I felt it was essential. Showing radar returns on the chart put everything in context for me and made the radar info much easier to understand and utilize.

But the down side of radar overlay is that the echo's obscure things on the charts. For example, an echo return from a buoy can mast the chart info about the buoy like it's number or light pattern. Over time, this started to bother me more and more.

Then I started realizing that I was not always seeing echo returns because of all the other stuff on the chart. Magenta lines, depth numbers, bottom makeup, etc cluttered the display and radar echos didn't stand out as much as I would have liked. In heavy fog, I was really worrying that I was missing targets.

Then I stopped running with radar overlay. Echo returns stand out much better, and there is no cluttering of info on the chart. The only problem was correlating returns with things on the chart like buoys or small rock formations/islands. Once I discovered that I would simply click on them on the radar and an icon would pop up on CE in the location, it completely solved that problem.

What I finally realized is that this whole progression was really about becoming more comfortable reading a radar screen and being able to easily identify and correlate returns with chart items. When first starting off, it's not so easy, but over time you get better and better at it and it starts to become more second nature. Once you can look at a radar return and quickly correlate it with 90% of what's on the your chart plotter, then I think you'll find yourself always running radar in a separate screen rather than overlaying it on a chart.

I agree somewhat with this assessment.

Radar overlay is somewhat useful for some things, but not mission-critical. The most useful thing about it is being able to see both radar and charting at the same time. If I had two separate displays I would rarely use radar overlay.

I sailed a lot on boats with separate radar and chart displays, and I would say that it's even useful to exercise your brain a little to combine the radar image with the chart image, in your mind.

This will be hard for people who can't transpose orientation easily in their minds. Those people -- you know who you are -- who like to run the chart plotter in course-up mode, for example. Plotters should be North up; radar heading up, unless you're doing true motion, but I prefer heading up.


With my 8" displays, however, no way am I setting up separate windows for chart and radar. They are too small. Separate displays would be needed.

As to PC's as a substitute for plotters -- this is often done on power boats. Doesn't work so well if you need a display at your outdoor sailboat helm.

I do use a PC, running OpenCPN, at the nav table. On a 23" 4K display and with raster charts, this is a decent substitute for paper charts, and OpenCPN has a number of really powerful features lacking in normal MFD's. But I use this IN ADDITION to, and not in place of, normal marine MFD's. I have 8" B&G MFD's at the helm and at the nav table both.

Tanglewood is right about the bugs (original topic of this thread), but on my boat this has gotten much better after the last firmware updates. Still not really satisfactory, but now quite usable at least.

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I agree somewhat with this assessment.

Radar overlay is somewhat useful for some things, but not mission-critical. The most useful thing about it is being able to see both radar and charting at the same time. If I had two separate displays I would rarely use radar overlay.

I sailed a lot on boats with separate radar and chart displays, and I would say that it's even useful to exercise your brain a little to combine the radar image with the chart image, in your mind.

This will be hard for people who can't transpose orientation easily in their minds. Those people -- you know who you are -- who like to run the chart plotter in course-up mode, for example. Plotters should be North up; radar heading up, unless you're doing true motion, but I prefer heading up.


With my 8" displays, however, no way am I setting up separate windows for chart and radar. They are too small. Separate displays would be needed.

As to PC's as a substitute for plotters -- this is often done on power boats. Doesn't work so well if you need a display at your outdoor sailboat helm.

I do use a PC, running OpenCPN, at the nav table. On a 23" 4K display and with raster charts, this is a decent substitute for paper charts, and OpenCPN has a number of really powerful features lacking in normal MFD's. But I use this IN ADDITION to, and not in place of, normal marine MFD's. I have 8" B&G MFD's at the helm and at the nav table both.

Tanglewood is right about the bugs (original topic of this thread), but on my boat this has gotten much better after the last firmware updates. Still not really satisfactory, but now quite usable at least.

Our new boat has the following:

Late 80's Furuno radar with 5" or 6" B&W display at Nav station
Ten (?) year old 8" Garmin chart plotter at Nav station
Original B&G depth, speed, wind instruments with displays at front of cockpit

We need to update the radar as it is not functioning and get a display at the helm. I absolutely love the sailsteer display that the B&G Zeus2 has and went for a quote last year to have someone install a display, radar, and rudder sensor. They gave me an insanely high quote ($11K plus mounting pod) so I put that off. Most of the problems with the B&G seems to come from either the VHF radio or the autopilot. Here is what I would like to add to the boat this spring:

B&G Zeus2 9 or 12 MFM at helm
B&G HD radar
B&G rudder position sensor
AIS transmitter/receiver

I would eventually like to network everything together and change out the old depth/wind/speed sensors and displays next year. My question is this, has anyone had issues with the new B&G stuff when ONLY the radar is connected to the MFM?

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by deluxe68

I would eventually like to network everything together and change out the old depth/wind/speed sensors and displays next year. My question is this, has anyone had issues with the new B&G stuff when ONLY the radar is connected to the MFM?

All the radar issues I reported would still be an issue. But I think after all the negative exposure on Panbo, Navico will make a higher priority of addressing it.

[Neptune's Gear]

Not sure I agree with the comment above about the pc solutions not being good if you want a screen outside at the helm. I've been doing this for over 5 years now, with a 15" screen at the outside helm. Sunlight viewable, ip67, touch screens - same same as the Zeus 11 you guys are talking about. I have monitors available from 8". Can be run off the pc below as a 2nd monitor, or a clone of the primary.
Our own one can be turned to face fwd for ease of viewing and watching movies in the cockpit as well.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[capbillh]

I have Zeus2 9", V50, H50, B&G autopilot, B&G 4G radar thru the RI10 to the Zeus. After upgrading to V3 last summer and latest for H50 the only glitch is DSC reaching is not solid. AIS receive is good.