Usefullness of HF-radio (short-wave radios) in the Caribbean and Pacific Ocean

[BillKny]

I think you will find that svDHARMA and I completely agree, even though we came to exactly the opposite conclusions on our boats.

Originally Posted by ussvdharma

HF ssb radio is extremely usefull....
-1. talking with other boats

We certainly understand that this is really important for some people. Different strokes. We haven't ever felt the need or desire to have an open party line chat with another boat over the horizon. If we ever had the NEED to talk to another boat, odds are they have a satphone, and we can communicate that way by voice text or email.

Originally Posted by ussvdharma

-2. getting weather products and grib files

This is SOOOO much faster, more efficient and more reliable to get via our Iridium connection. I would NEVER give up our sat connection for this reason alone. This--alone--justifies the capital cost and monthly expense of our satphone. Everything else is gravy.

Originally Posted by ussvdharma

-3. Using Pactor getting email anywhere in the world you are (requires airmail or sailmail

OK, Here is a second reason we would never give up our sat connection. But honestly, with the exception of our more or less daily blog posts, in the last 8 years of full time cruising, we have sent a total of 28 emails while off grid. They were almost all logistical issues. So I guess we could deal with the complexities of PACTOR email, but why?

Originally Posted by ussvdharma

-4 Giving estimated eta to harbor masters in foreign ports.

Again, SOOOO much easier and more reliable to send an email or even better, just call them on the sat phone. I have never, ever, anywhere seen a harbormaster with a HAM rig listening for customers to call in. I am sure it might still happen--somewhere--but we have NEVER had a habormaster (or anybody else) suggest this was a way it was possible to get in touch with them.

Originally Posted by ussvdharma

-5 listening to shortwave programs, quiz shows, dramas, good music, DRM broadcasts.

I have to confess, I do not know what a "DRM broadcast" is so maybe I am missing out on something really fun and useful, but we just do not need any of those other things.

Again, different strokes. I know people who would just feel like they were in a very deep circle of hell if they didn't get the news from the BBC every 8 hours. Of course all those things would all be available on a $150 shortwave receiver, if you really needed them.

Originally Posted by ussvdharma

-6. Emergency calls, etc.

Between the sat phone, several EPIRBS and VHF we are comfortable we have ourselves covered. Again, somebody else might conclude differently.

It also is possible that "etc." covers things that I have no knowledge of, and if I was smart enough to take advantage of them would make my cruising life infinitely more fulfilling than I can currently imagine, but I doubt it.

If people need to get our attention while we are off-grid, the easiest, cheapest and best way to do it is by SMS to our sat phone. It is 100% reliable, we get instant notification that a message has arrived, and this happens anywhere in the world without much worry about time of day, sunspots, ionosphere height, or propagation frequencies, or anything else.

For a modern boat we consider an Iridium or similar system among the most useful safety and communication tools. Once you have an Iridium system are are using it, an SSB or HAM rig becomes social media entertainment. Important, even vital, to some and completely disposable to others.

My conclusion is if you need to have a long distance radio link, then you can certainly live without a satphone. If, like me, the voice communication over the radio is of no interest, then you can use an Iridium and have a much simpler and more reliable communication system with much more useful capabilities for the average cruising boat.

Neither answer it right or wrong.

[svtriumph77]

OK, so here is the perspective from some who has a SSB receive only on board our cruising boat, a DeLorme Inreach, and soon to be Iridium Go + Predictwind Offshore. My partner is also a General Ham. We spent 6 months (Aug 1 to Dec 24 2020) going down the West Coast San Fran to Cabo on TWO boats. Our boat San Fran to Ensenada and a friends Passport 40 with a SSB transceiver (Icom 710) and Iridium Go + PredictWind offshore. The bottom line is I think there is a middle ground of:

1) the IridiumGO plus PW Offshore. $1,000 equipment cost and $170/month for SW ($250/yr) and airtime ($140/month). Note to do a proper SSB Icom 802/Pactor install is about $3K to $6K plus and $250/yr for SailMail.

2) a SSB receive ONLY (about to change out my old Sitex SSB receiver for a Tecsun PL-880 for $200) for weatherfax plus HF radio for listening in to appropriate SSB nets etc. My partner did the Chubasco net check on the Passport 40's SSB on the way to Cabo and it was fun but hardly necessary. In fact we did not pay a great deal of attention to their weather forecast but relied on the GO+PWO for that. Chatting on the SSB...or VHF nets for that matter...is not our thing. From a safety perspective I would argue loudly that anyone thinking a SSB transceiver is a better tool than an InReach or a EPIRB or a Iridium Go is badly misinformed.

The bottom line is this. If you can afford the monthly GO+PWO it is simply a better option in the ways that matter over a SSB transceiver. If you don't want to pay the monthly costs of the GO+PWO I would submit that a InReach ($35/mo) plus a subscription to a weather routing service like Commanders Weather gives you at least as good a shot at arriving safely from a trans-ocean passage than a SSB plus weather faxes.

[Parrothedd]

Im my opinion, having to choose between a SSB radio and a satellite system is like being on a life raft and having to choose between having WATER or FOOD. I know that having BOTH is the best option IF you can afford it. The other thing is nobody, ever ever, has been in a sinking boat, and were happy with their decision to get the smaller, cheaper LIFE RAFT.

Being on the HF and Amateur Radio several hours a day, gives me a different perspective on the usefulness of a SSB radio on board. Consider scenario one:

You are making a trans-Atlantic passage. You have a catastrophic fire/explosion which forces you into the water with only your EPIRB and a life preserver. The life raft is burning with the boat. Now what? Is the EPIRB really transmitting. Gee, sure hope so. Is someone doing something about it? Sure hope so, but I recall the 3 instances where EPIRBs in the Caribbean unanswered on three (3) occasions and the sailors died. (see Boatwatch.org). BUT...if I had pushed the DSC MAYDAY button on my ICOM 802 or 803 as I hurriedly abandoned ship, every single ship within literally hundreds of miles have heard my MAYDAY message, received my MMSI number, and received my exact GPS condition.

I would imagine, most of us would want the EPIRB and the SSB radio letting people know of our distress.

Glenn Tuttle
SSCA HF Radio Service KPK
Daily 1215 hrs UTC
Freq: 8.152

[StoneCrab]

This is an interesting discussion.

I bought an Icom M710 in the 90's but never got the ham license. Since they dropped code as a requirement, and I was home and bored, I studied up and finally got the Ham license.

I plan on bringing the Icom home to get more familiar with the radio. Thanks to several fellow cruisers on Cruisers Forum, I was able to source the software to open the radio up to the ham frequencies. If the weather ever breaks, I plan on fetching the radio soon. For me the radio is already a sunk cost.

I guess for me, having started when I did, I want to enjoy the old school ways, just for fun. It is the same reason that I own a sextant. There is some romantic attachment to the ole "wireless" and the stars.

I'd have to agree that for expediency, you can't beat the sat phone though. It is a simpler system with fewer requirements.

I see that Rebecca from Brickhouse reports that her SSB has not been used in quite a while. If I can paraphrase, her frustration had to do with the need to be on a schedule in order to catch the transmissions and propagation time periods. The Sat phone just free's you up to be on your own schedule.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by surazo

really ,I think the question is ssb and HF ? why don't have both .

To add some clarity, SSB radios are HF - SSB is a mode commonly used on HF frequencies. Conversely, VHF typically is FM. The mode is irrelevant to this discussion which is about communications over long distances such as while under passage where only HF SSB is practicable.

[StoneCrab]

Ironically, you may have better luck with 2 meter communications when coastal cruising. HF isn't great at close or medium distances.

Without getting into propagation and skipping, the new radios with digital modes running on 2 meter can have their signals routed worldwide through repeaters and the internet. Coastal cruising along the the US borders, repeaters are plentiful.

Perhaps some others can comment on the availability of 2 meter repeaters internationally.

In any case, if you buy a mobile HAM radio, these can be had for well under $1000. On a boat you wouldn't need a power supply since they run on 12 VDC. I'd recommend a good antenna tuner, but you can easily install an HF or even a HF/VHF/UHF radio for just a couple of boat bucks, which is way cheaper than a Marine Service HF radio.

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by StoneCrab

HF isn't great at close or medium distances.

.

Depends how you define "close" or "medium" distances. We use the 80m band regularly with good success for distances along the BC coast and into Alaska (300-500 nm and much closer).

[waterman46]

The standard for HF on board was the Icom M802. It is not sold in the US anymore - Icom cleverly replaced it, for US sales, with a different, far more expensive but no better in practical function, model M803 at $2500. Then you'll want a Pactor modem $1200, antenna tuner $800, and the installation cost if you are not familiar with HF at all.

You'll find that many of those who use HF radio on their boats are also ham radio operators. We don't mind, in fact enjoy the challenge, of finding the right time of day and frequencies to use our radio equipment, so it is definitely a great hobby. HF can be useful with patience, but satellite radio is actually cheaper and much much more reliable. And the sunspot cycle is near it's bottom right now, meaning that long distance HF, more than several hundred miles, is somewhat unreliable. With satellite you connect at any time you wish, no waiting for propagation to improve.

You cannot legally use ham frequencies in national waters belonging to another country, without a reciprocal license, which is nearly impossible to get for short term transients such as we cruisers. We use marine HF frequencies and Sailmail (subscription required) to get weather, waiting for right time of day to connect.

Having said all that negative stuff, HF radio has one undeniable advantage over all other forms of electronics on board. You must get a radio with emergency DSC capability. This will give you emergency communications with any nearby ships (or yachts if equipped and powered up). Ships are required to have DSC active and an alarm is raised if they receive a DSC emergency transmission.

Now, VHF radios also have DSC calling, but the range is just about 20 miles. Possibly a bit more in good conditions to a ship with a high antenna. But HF is very reliable at somewhat greater ranges up to several hundred miles, and DSC radios automatically transmit on special channels on a variety of frequencies to greatly improve your chances of being heard.

When you are very far from shore, getting help quickly can only best be done by another ship or yacht. So this is the real safety value of HF with DSC.

[Dockhead]

HF radio requires a considerable investment of money and time to use successfully.



It does a few things which no satellite system can do, and emergency comms functions are better (provided you have a set with DSC like the Icom M802). HF radio can be fun and interesting to use, especially if you have an amateur radio license. I like it and use it. HF radio for a person with a ham license has 100's of different functions and can be not only useful but quite entertaining on a long ocean passage or cruise in remote areas. In a way which satellite comms cannot to nearly the same extent, HF radio allows you to feel somewhat connected with the world.



But if the OP is not interested in it for its own sake, it's probably not worth it. For getting weather and basic text email Iridium Go is much more convenient, and so much cheaper to acquire and install that the accumulated usage charges ($139 per month for unlimited data) will almost never catch up with the installation cost of HF radio.


And for sure, there is no need for HF radio (or satellite) if you're not sailing offshore. VHF radio plus mobile phones and mobile phone data are quite satisfactory for normal coastal cruising, like what 90% of cruisers do.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

HF radio requires a considerable investment of money and time to use successfully.



It does a few things which no satellite system can do, and emergency comms functions are better (provided you have a set with DSC like the Icom M802). HF radio can be fun and interesting to use, especially if you have an amateur radio license. I like it and use it. HF radio for a person with a ham license has 100's of different functions and can be not only useful but quite entertaining on a long ocean passage or cruise in remote areas. In a way which satellite comms cannot to nearly the same extent, HF radio allows you to feel somewhat connected with the world.



But if the OP is not interested in it for its own sake, it's probably not worth it. For getting weather and basic text email Iridium Go is much more convenient, and so much cheaper to acquire and install that the accumulated usage charges ($139 per month for unlimited data) will almost never catch up with the installation cost of HF radio.


And for sure, there is no need for HF radio (or satellite) if you're not sailing offshore. VHF radio plus mobile phones and mobile phone data are quite satisfactory for normal coastal cruising, like what 90% of cruisers do.

DH,
Your exaggerating on the costs. We probably have about usd$3.5k into our 802 plus pactor. We've been using it while cruising, mostly full time, over the last 10 years. Take an IridiumGo at usd$139 per month package (plus $700 for the unit) over 10 years and you get $16,600. Now let's cut that in half because you only spend half a year in more remote areas, $8,300. Either way, satellite comms adds up. They are very convenient and generally reliable, but not cheap.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul L

DH,
Your exaggerating on the costs. We probably have about usd$3.5k into our 802 plus pactor. We've been using it while cruising, mostly full time, over the last 10 years. Take an IridiumGo at usd$139 per month package (plus $700 for the unit) over 10 years and you get $16,600. Now let's cut that in half because you only spend half a year in more remote areas, $8,300. Either way, satellite comms adds up. They are very convenient and generally reliable, but not cheap.

Well, it depends on your use case.


Certainly, if you are in need of offshore comms six months out of the year, then HF radio will after all pay for itself.


But that is a fairly unusual use case. If you need it for the odd summer or the odd ocean crossing like most people do, then Iridium is much cheaper.

[Little John]

Iridium is a nice to have, but security-communication and ship/ship/shore-communcation on the oceans do not rely on Iridium and HAM but on GMDSS, in english global maritime distress and savety system. Part of it, but not only, are Inmarsat, Navtex, VHF-DSC and MF/HF-DSC. That mean best chance to communicate trouble to qualified help AND ongoing communication in the case of emergency. All nations participate. It is existing and working. Why not participating?

[boat driver]

redundancy. risk assessment. Otherwise choice becomes yours. Lower latitudes no real issue with satellite phone, but have another method of long distance communication in event phone fails to work.
In higher latitudes this becomes another discussion.

otherwise, the party line of the SSB gets the message out to someone to relay. The phone number specific message can get the same message to the receiver if properly programmed.

Maybe save on the second unit and purchase a backup epirb.

[StoneCrab]

Originally Posted by waterman46

You cannot legally use ham frequencies in national waters belonging to another country, without a reciprocal license, which is nearly impossible to get for short term transients such as we cruisers.

I wanted to fact check this statement since I recall seeing a question on the license test that related to your ability to use your Amateur license from a US documented boat, anywhere it was located, to countries with reciprocal agreements. This is an exception to the normal rules relating to land based operation.

So far my search of the FCC site hasn't pulled up that rule. Maybe I need to check the ITU rules. I thought it was covered in Section 97.11 of FCC rules. Wikipedia says:

Most countries' amateur radio licenses allow licensed operators to install and use radio transmission equipment while at sea. Such operation is known as maritime mobile amateur radio. In most cases the operator's call sign needs to be extended by adding the suffix "/MM" when transmitting at sea.

The ARRL site US Amateurs Operating Overseas also refers to land based operations but has lists of the countries with reciprocity.

This page speaks specifically about Maritime Mobile Operations: Maritime Mobile Operation in International Waters I think their comments on the use of HF at sea relate pretty closely to this discussion.

From time to time, problems do crop up, and these usually stem from misinterpretations of the rules or from myths surrounding the so-called "gray areas" in the rules. Nowhere is this more true than in the case of amateur maritime mobile operation in and around foreign ports. Even hams with good intentions often have trouble in determining just what they are supposed to do when in international waters, e.g., the high seas.

On the darker side, while certainly not characteristic of most amateur maritime operators, unscrupulous yachters have been known to operate on the ham frequencies without a license. They often are of the mistaken opinion that, because they are on the high seas, the rules somehow don't apply to them. These unlicensed operators often do not install maritime mobile emergency communications gear, relying instead on a ham transceiver for all communication. This disregard of the rules and of domestic law can, among other things, complicate US and foreign efforts to reach third party traffic and other such agreements.

What is the definition of international waters or the "high seas?"-

Article 1 of the Geneva Convention of 1958 on the "high seas" states: "The term 'high seas' means all parts of the sea that are not included in the territorial sea or in the internal waters of a state." Article 2 states: "The high seas being open to all nations, no state may validly purport to subject any part of them to its sovereignty." The sovereignty of a state extends to the airspace above the territorial sea as well as to the sea floor and the subsoil beneath it.

In another section, the ARRL FAQ's go on to say:

When you're in International waters, you operate under the auspices of your FCC license, but you must be mindful of the frequencies assigned to other ITU Regions. The world is divided into three "pieces of the pie." You are bound by the privileges assigned to the ITU Region from which you're operating and by the privileges as outlined by your FCC license. It's a good idea to follow your call sign with the words "maritime mobile" or "aeronautical mobile" followed by the proper ITU Region number.

I'm going to keep looking for the answer to this question. I do remember it specifically had to do with being on a US documented boat, but in the event I misunderstood the intent of the rule, it would be good for me to find out.

[StoneCrab]

OK, I had to call the ARRL and speak to Dan in the Rules and Regulations department. He's working hard under difficult circumstances.

What I learned from Dan is that if you are on a US flagged ship in International Waters, your US Amateur privileges' apply. That is not to say that those privileges are the same around the world. They differ depending on what ITU region that you are in.

Once you enter another countries territorial waters, use of the Amateur Radio comes under the guidelines and agreements of that country. There is no standard procedure for being granted privileges in another country.

Sometimes you can apply in advance, other times you can only apply when you are standing on their soil. Sometimes an International Amateur Radio Permit, which is good for a year, is sufficient to allow operation, other-times, like in Panama, even with a IARP, you need to notify the government before you operate there.

You also may not be granted privileges if your class license is below Extra Class. There are a limited number of countries who extend limited operations with a General Class, but if you are only a Technician Class, you're probably excluded.

Of course it goes without saying that the band, and mode privileges are also very individual to that country. ARRL maintains a list of countries and the application process. Dan is working hard to get this dialed in before he retires. Select Countries A - D

I asked him if there were any exceptions for cruising boats since the time in country is much less than operators traveling by land. He suggested that cruisers do not represent their target audience, which is to say that his focus is on enabling operations for those who are economically challenged and Amateur communications may be their only bet. Of course this goal covers the widest population.

So my question to CF ... are there any groups or sites other than the ARRL which maintains pertinent information which is relative to Cruisers? When I read about Cruisers in the South Pacific participating on nets, are they all legal?... or are they just using the equipment, figuring that enforcement is too difficult on a mobile platform?