VHF with DSC, AIS, and GPS!

[4arch]

Originally Posted by Emmalina

I think sooner or later global legislation will force the installation of Class B AIS on the leisure market.

I see this being very difficult to implement in a fair manner for small boats. Presumably there would be a small boat exemption, but where do you draw the line? Size alone doesn't work - a 16 foot Hobie Cat and a 16 foot center console with 100+ HP are extremely different vessels. So maybe some combination of LOA and HP determines the cutoff, but it's still a very hard line to draw as the more exceptions you allow, the more "black holes" you end up with.

There are also considerations of operating area. Forcing AIS on a 25 foot daysailer that's kept on a rural lake with zero commercial traffic to me is an overreach. On the other hand, for the same boat kept in New York harbor it would be quite reasonable to expect AIS in a world where it was mandated for recreational boats.

[continuouswave]

There is no good basis for requiring recreational or leisure boats to have AIS in so far as it is a collision avoidance system. Consider the effect on collision avoidance in areas where commercial traffic and recreational traffic share the waterway. Local to me is Lake St. Clair, where on a nice summer weekend day there might be 5,000 boats on the lake within AIS radio range of any commercial ship. What is the value of an ECDIS display that shows 5,000 targets within a ten-mile range? The value of AIS for collision avoidance would be reduced by all the clutter.

Also, I doubt there is room for 5,000 AIS transponders to all transmit in a self-configured time-shared network. The AIS system was not designed for such high density.

As for scaling the AIS and MMSI system to handle much higher volumes of boats, I don't think it will work very well. In my state, Michigan, we alone have about 1,000,000 recreational boats. Imagine if they all had to get an FCC license, get an MMSI, and install a Class-B transponder. First of all, that would be a "tax" of $215-million just for the crazy FCC license fees. Then if the AIS transponder and radio integrated device were $1,000, another "tax" of $1-billion for the equipment.

At present, we only have to register or vessels with the state, which costs about $20/year. The notion that we'd also have to get a $1,000 transponder and pay $215 in fees, means the cost of fees for boating would go to $1,235 from $20. No one would support such a 600-times tax increase.

Unfortunately, what began as a safety consideration for collision avoidance has become a vessel tracking system, and in the USA at least we see that the Department of Homeland Security is quite gung-ho to have recreational vessels tracked. To this end they have sponsored the so-called AIS Class-E devices, which, in reality, provide almost no benefit of collision avoidance but do lull boaters into paying for their own vessel tracking by the Department of Homeland Security. But that is another topic.

[ka4wja]

Not to put too fine a point on this subject, but...

But, since there currently are NO combo "VHF-DSC-Radio / Class B AIS Transponder" units on the market, and none were shown / debuted at METS (Marine Equipment Trade Show) last month in Amsterdam, not even a prototype....and, while it's possible that someone might be waiting 'til the Miami show in Feb, I've heard no rumblings about any Miami debut....

If anyone was hoping for this to come to market soon, in my opinion, you're in for a wait....and still maybe never...

So, as I wrote yesterday, if you're in the market for an AIS transponder and/or a new VHF, go and buy them....'cause there are no combo units...


BTW, slightly off-topic but informative....is a quote from Ben Ellison, in February 25, 2014 Panbo....

There is still an amazing number of boats that can't use the excellent DSC distress feature that's been built into every fixed VHF marine radio sold in the U.S.A since 1999. Their radio either hasn't been interfaced with a GPS or hasn't been programmed with the owner's MMSI number, or both. I've heard Coast Guard rescue center personnel report that a DSC alert can work beautifully to quickly identify and locate a boat in trouble, but that they rarely see valid DSC alerts. So before discussing advances in VHF (and AIS), let's note how companies like Standard Horizon and Icom are helping to make working DSC a pervasive reality (finally)...

Fair winds to all...

John
s/v Annie Laurie

[COLINFLTENG]

Just installed GX2200 works great

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by COLINFLTENG

Just installed GX2200 works great

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

It's a ripper. I love mine too. So far I've not been able to get anyone in a dsc call though.

[FamilyVan]

I just happened across this thread and product today. I need a new VHF because my fixed VHF is wonky. I did my usual Westmarine search, and is normal practice for me I looked at the 5 or so cheapest units and looked for the one with the most stars, as a start to my research. I immediately realised the VHF market had changed significantly since I last purchased a fixed VHF. I noticed the RADAR type display screen on the M506, I was vaguely aware that many modern VHF's had GPS capability, so I assumed it was a display showing how many satellites the unit was tracking. I wondered why it took up half the screen, so I read the short description.


I was blown away! What a brilliant Idea, an affordable VHF (okay- more so the SH), with AIS capability.


I have no use for a transceiver what so ever, first of all, I know it's a favourite tool of some of the lazier LE agencies, just trying to get a few vessel checks in for the night, so they can say they did something in their daily reports, but secondly I boat in a high traffic area, and I know it would confuse the heck out of local Pro-Mariners, "hey look cap, it's the FamilyVan, is that one of Algomas new builds from China?", "Idk mate, but she's only making a knot and half forwards and two knots side ways, she must have some mad thrusters in'er whatever she is".


Very cool product, I think I might get one this week end.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by FamilyVan

I just happened across this thread and product today. I need a new VHF because my fixed VHF is wonky. I did my usual Westmarine search, and is normal practice for me I looked at the 5 or so cheapest units and looked for the one with the most stars, as a start to my research. I immediately realised the VHF market had changed significantly since I last purchased a fixed VHF. I noticed the RADAR type display screen on the M506, I was vaguely aware that many modern VHF's had GPS capability, so I assumed it was a display showing how many satellites the unit was tracking. I wondered why it took up half the screen, so I read the short description.


I was blown away! What a brilliant Idea, an affordable VHF (okay- more so the SH), with AIS capability.


I have no use for a transceiver what so ever, first of all, I know it's a favourite tool of some of the lazier LE agencies, just trying to get a few vessel checks in for the night, so they can say they did something in their daily reports, but secondly I boat in a high traffic area, and I know it would confuse the heck out of local Pro-Mariners, "hey look cap, it's the FamilyVan, is that one of Algomas new builds from China?", "Idk mate, but she's only making a knot and half forwards and two knots side ways, she must have some mad thrusters in'er whatever she is".


Very cool product, I think I might get one this week end.

Yes, the Icom and Standard Horizon are both very similar units. I'm not sure but I think the SH would be cheaper.

Personally I wouldn't agree with you at all that you have no use for a transceiver. I would have thought the busier it is the more valuable they are. But alas, I don't have one either, just due to the cost. One day when SH put out a unit which transmit as well as receive then I'll look at upgrading for sure.

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Yes, the Icom and Standard Horizon are both very similar units. I'm not sure but I think the SH would be cheaper.

Personally I wouldn't agree with you at all that you have no use for a transceiver. I would have thought the busier it is the more valuable they are. But alas, I don't have one either, just due to the cost. One day when SH put out a unit which transmit as well as receive then I'll look at upgrading for sure.

I see, their is value in having large ships be able to detect you, but if every yacht gets AIS transceivers, the only thing visible to ships moving at 15 knots with their ECDIS set to an eight mile range, would be lots of clutter, it would be really hard for them to make sense of the data.

I'm a pretty law abiding citizen, but I don't like being boarded when I'm trying to sail. There is an international boarder within a couple of miles of my home base, and in within a few miles of me the following agencies have officers on the water looking for something to do.

Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Canadian Boarder Services Agency
Ontario Provincial Police
Niagara Regional Police
Canada Coast Guard
US department of Homeland Security
US Coast Guard
New York State Sheriffs Department
US Boarder Protection
US Fish and Game
Canadian Fisheries Enforcement Officers
Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources
US Environmental Protection Agency
Environment Canada

They all have boats. They all have budgets to justify. I don't like advertising my position.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by FamilyVan

I see, their is value in having large ships be able to detect you, but if every yacht gets AIS transceivers, the only thing visible to ships moving at 15 knots with their ECDIS set to an eight mile range, would be lots of clutter, it would be really hard for them to make sense of the data.

I'm a pretty law abiding citizen, but I don't like being boarded when I'm trying to sail. There is an international boarder within a couple of miles of my home base, and in within a few miles of me the following agencies have officers on the water looking for something to do.

Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Canadian Boarder Services Agency
Ontario Provincial Police
Niagara Regional Police
Canada Coast Guard
US department of Homeland Security
US Coast Guard
New York State Sheriffs Department
US Boarder Protection
US Fish and Game
Canadian Fisheries Enforcement Officers
Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources
US Environmental Protection Agency
Environment Canada

They all have boats. They all have budgets to justify. I don't like advertising my position.

Holy Toledo, I've be running silent too.

[Captain Bill]

I've been using my SH 2200 for about 6 months now. I have been really happy with it. My only technical complaint is that it will only give bearings in true when using the internal GPS. One has to attach an external GPS to get magnetic bearings. Even the cheapest GPSs can manage to give you magnetic headings and bearings. I can't imagine the software to do this is beyond the Yeasu engineering department.

One other thing I have noticed is that it seems a bit challenged when receiving class A AIS signals. I've had big ships finally show up at 2 miles and another at 3 miles while I'm happily receiving class B signals from 20 miles at the same time. Since it's the class A signals I'm really worried about I'm not about to give up my radar.

[cabo_sailor]

I believe that the VHF units you are looking at are capable of receiving AIS A & B transmissions but not transmitting. I am in the process of upgrading all my electronics will probably be the SH. I will locate the main unit below and put a RAM at the helm.

Rich

Sent from my iPhone using Quantum Entagelment

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I've been using my SH 2200 for about 6 months now. I have been really happy with it. My only technical complaint is that it will only give bearings in true when using the internal GPS. One has to attach an external GPS to get magnetic bearings. Even the cheapest GPSs can manage to give you magnetic headings and bearings. I can't imagine the software to do this is beyond the Yeasu engineering department.

One other thing I have noticed is that it seems a bit challenged when receiving class A AIS signals. I've had big ships finally show up at 2 miles and another at 3 miles while I'm happily receiving class B signals from 20 miles at the same time. Since it's the class A signals I'm really worried about I'm not about to give up my radar.

I have a steel boat and so the internal GPS didn't work at all. But I've had no problems in picking up any signals with the external GPS.

[ka4wja]

FamilyVan, Captain Bill, Rustic Charm, et al,
Here are some comments that you may find helpful...

1) The Icom M-506 is a great radio....just be aware there are different versions of it....one with the AIS receiver built-in and one without!!



2) While there are some CF members that are commercial mariners with much experience in these specific circumstances, the gist is that in situations with literally 100's of targets in a small area, most will have their ECDIS filter out non-threatening targets (i.e. those with CPA's above the vessel's desired minimums)....so clutter is minimized / eliminated...(in years past, this fact was used to spread the FALSE rumor that "big ship's filter out Class B AIS signals", which they do NOT...)

Originally Posted by FamilyVan

I see, their is value in having large ships be able to detect you, but if every yacht gets AIS transceivers, the only thing visible to ships moving at 15 knots with their ECDIS set to an eight mile range, would be lots of clutter, it would be really hard for them to make sense of the data.

3) Bill, not having a SH2200 myself, I cannot comment on the true vs. magnetic bearing issue....but...
But, if you are having trouble receiving Class A AIS signals, this sounds like a problem with your unit, as I've not heard of others with the 2150 / 2200 having this issue...

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I've been using my SH 2200 for about 6 months now....
.....One other thing I have noticed is that it seems a bit challenged when receiving class A AIS signals. I've had big ships finally show up at 2 miles and another at 3 miles while I'm happily receiving class B signals from 20 miles at the same time. Since it's the class A signals I'm really worried about I'm not about to give up my radar.

Make sure these are Class A signals that you are not getting until they are 2 - 3 miles away, and that you are getting Class B signals from 20 miles away, all at the SAME time, and ALL THE TIME...not just that you picked up a couple big ships at 2 - 3 miles over a day or two, but on other days you picked-up a Class B signal or two at 20 miles...

Once you verify that, then I'd say it is time for:
a) A call to Standard Horizon ASAP...
b) Take the radio back to where you bought it, and get it exchanged...

As this is NOT normal, and would seem to indicate a defect in your SH2200...

FYI, sitting at my dock about 1 mile inland, behind a 30' hill (towards the Atlantic), I see Class A signals ALL THE TIME, EVERYDAY from ships in port in the Port of Palm Beach and Ft. Pierce, etc. 18 - 25 miles away...and most days see ships 25+ miles away....but Class B targets are rare beyond 12 - 15miles (and 8 - 12 miles is typical)....
Of course, when at sea these ranges are longer...

So, Bill while not having an AIS receiver is not an issue at all, I find your issue getting reliable signals from Class A transponders to be a problem you should look into...as this just may be a precursor of something worse happening to your radio....





4) Regarding the original point of this thread, combined VHF-DSC and AIS Transponders, don't hold your breath....and even if it does come about next year (or 2 - 3 years down the road), it will be pricey and put too many of your eggs in one basket, in my opinion anyway...

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

But alas, I don't have one either, just due to the cost. One day when SH put out a unit which transmit as well as receive then I'll look at upgrading for sure.

Fact is that no marine electronics manufacture has even showed a prototype of this combo, let alone gotten it FCC / CE / EU certified, nor IMO certified, etc...so, even if someone is working on it, it will be at least a year 'til you'd be able to buy it...

And, if a sailor/cruiser does not already have a Class D VHF-DSC radio (which unfortunately, even after the DSC standard was set in 1992, and made mandatory for all SOLAS vessels since Jan 1999, even now ~20 years later many sailors do not have a Class D DSC-VHF radio!), my advice would be to go out and buy/install one NOW...




I hope this helps...

Fair winds..

John

[COLINFLTENG]

My Standard Horizon GX2200 works great just tested DSC functiony self test no problem

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by COLINFLTENG

My Standard Horizon GX2200 works great just tested DSC functiony self test no problem

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

There a great unit.

How do you check the DSC function?