What do you do to mitigate lighting damage?

[kmason]

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari

...Plenty of good science there on grounding too...

...you're far better off grounded than ungrounded if struck really isn't debatable imho

What science? Show me something that says you are better off having your boat grounded during a lightening strike. Also, while you're at it show me some science that says you are NOT providing a better path for lightening to travel. A big aluminium mast with a copper cable dangling in the water seems like an awfully attractive conductor.

Saying there is no reason to debate the topic because your opinion supersedes any facts is an interesting tactic.

[Cyrus Safdari]

Originally Posted by kmason

an awfully attractive conductor.
.

Because things - even metal things - don't "attract" lightning. This is simply a common myth. So you can't "attract" lightning with a grounded mast any more than with an ungrounded one. Even so Your little bit of aluminum 50 ft high is not particularly impressive vs a giant bloody ocean of salt water to lightning charge thats developed hundreds of miles in nonconductive empty air because it is a metal conductor. Wooden masts get hit too as do trees. Because they're pointy and tall not because theyre grounded or metal conductors

"Myth: Structures with metal, or metal on the body (jewelry, cell phones,Mp3 players, watches, etc), attract lightning.
Fact: Height, pointy shape, and isolation are the dominant factors controlling where a lightning bolt will strike. The presence of metal makes absolutely no difference on where lightning strikes..."

https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-myths

However I too feel uncomfotrable with a tall pointy isolated mast in a flat ocean and frankly i would assume I'm going to get hit just out of dumb luck as well as divine retribution regardless of the science of whether I'm "attracting" lightning or not which is why I grounded everything


Look regardless of whether you believe in the effectiveness of lightning mitigation or not the "cost" of installing a grounding plate is tiny compared to the "cost" of a strike as unlikely as it may be so rationally i swallowed my ego and said gee maybe I should reconsider (especially when I saw how the boltbhad punched through the prop shaft. Important to keep grounding wire off hull interior obviously ...an elongate hole in a hard to reach place with a shaft in the way. What a batch to plug up. )

This is also why I have a life raft. Or wear seatbelts. Or a mask nowadays.

You however, do you.

The old "electricity seeks the easiest path to ground" saying that people mindlessly repeat is proof of the other old saying that a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari

I think you're really really, over estimwting how much cruisers optimize things...lol

If someone thinks using a oven as a Faraday cage because the ... what? Weight savings? - makes them a better cruiser somehow, far be it for me to stop them from shoving their electronics or themselves in an oven. I'll splurge on a tin box to make a real Faraday cage that I don't also need to bake a chicken in.

Weight saving, how'd you bring up such a dumb argument?
Enjoy your full lunchbox faraday cage that carefully protects your electronics from all those scary, low energy GHz signals running around your boat. Hope it has a nice Batman or Superman pic on it. You still didn't do the hole size calculation for lower frequencies, did you?

On my boat I use the oven for the active things, like laptops, for protection. For long term storage I use multiple layers of aluminum foil separated by plastic to wrap back-up autopilot electronics.

[Cyrus Safdari]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Weight saving, how'd you bring up such a dumb argument?

Well I just had to guess as to why anyone would want to figure out how to make the biggest possible holes in their Faraday cages as you suggest cruisers do vs. Making the smallest or no holes at all so...

Originally Posted by Paul L

Enjoy your full lunchbox faraday cage that carefully protects your electronics from all those scary, low energy GHz signals running around your boat. Hope it has a nice Batman or Superman pic on it. You still didn't do the hole size calculation for lower frequencies, did you?

No because no need since with the least and smallest number of gaps - all less than 1/2" mind you - I really don't have to worry about calculations since I'm as protected as I can be as far as continuity of my Faraday cage goes... but I'd like to think the Planet of the Apes guy has something to do with it too, yes.

Originally Posted by Paul L

On my boat I use the oven for the active things, like laptops, for protection. For long term storage I use multiple layers of aluminum foil separated by plastic to wrap back-up autopilot electronics.

Insulated foil is probably good enough honestly. Easy way to check: wrap it around your cellphone and try calling yourself. If cell signal can get through so can a lightning induced charge

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari

No because no need since with the least and smallest number of gaps - all less than 1/2" mind you - I really don't have to worry about calculations since I'm as protected as I can be as far as continuity of my Faraday cage goes... but I'd like to think the Planet of the Apes guy has something to do with it too, yes.

You don't care about the calculations, you just want to tell everyone that an oven and microwave don't make a good faraday cage on a boat. And your scientific justification is that you own something else that is a faraday cage.

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari

Insulated foil is probably good enough honestly. Easy way to check: wrap it around your cellphone and try calling yourself. If cell signal can get through so can a lightning induced charge

Do you really think that testing for a super weak GHz cellphone signal is in anyway a reasonable test against lightning damage?
With that crazy thought I'll just bugger out of this thread.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by kmason

What science? Show me something that says you are better off having your boat grounded during a lightening strike. Also, while you're at it show me some science that says you are NOT providing a better path for lightening to travel. A big aluminium mast with a copper cable dangling in the water seems like an awfully attractive conductor...

Based upon the nature of your question, I suspect that to do so, would be pointless. You'd not likely read/understand such evidence.
It's already been posted, on CF, many times, in the past.

See also ➥ https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3292460

[darylat8750]

Another story that has no science. We had a driveway alarm with a motion detector. We would get multiple false alarms at night. Well not really false in that when a herd of elk would wander through grazing we had to unplug it or have the ding dong going off for a couple of hours. So we put a loop detector under the driveway and could get a good nights sleep. One afternoon there were thunderstorms in the area and I was working in the garage when the driveway alarm went off. It was more than 5 seconds before I heard the thunder. We have seen a ground stroke set it off multiple time since then. I know it doesn't take much voltage to trigger a loop detector but there sure is a lot of energy in a lighting strike.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Lasivian

I figure it's not "if I get struck by lightning" it's "when I get struck by lightning".

What is the best solution to deal with this threat?

Thanks

have a direct relationship with God .

[Cyrus Safdari]

[

Originally Posted by Paul L

Do you really think that testing for a super weak GHz cellphone signal is in anyway a reasonable test against lightning damage?

Once more just to be clear the cellphone is not meant to be the same as a lightning bolt. WHIle we can't test the effectiveness of a faraday box gainst lightning without lightning (and we can't make that on demand very easily) we can use cellphone reception as an approximation, the idea being that
If there is cellphone reception inside your faraday cage then it probably can't block a lightning induced charge either. so it sets a ntestAble minimum standard thats all
(of course that doesn't mean if there's no receptionthen you're guaranteed a working Farwdwy cage)


And we can see from experimentation that material with about 1/2" gap sizes allows cellphone reception so again the idea is to view that as a maxx size for any gaps in your faraday box which ideally should have no gaps but you can always test your own faraday arrangement. There are no guarantees with lightning and the military spends huge amounts emp- hardening things including special metallic foam gaskets on electronics etc

[Cyrus Safdari]

Originally Posted by darylat8750

I know it doesn't take much voltage to trigger a loop detector but there sure is a lot of energy in a lighting strike.

Wow and it doesn't take a lot of power to interfere with a heartbeat

"Myth: If trapped outside and lightning is about to strike, I should lie flat on the ground.

Fact: Lying flat increases your chance of being affected by potentially deadly ground current. If you are caught outside in a thunderstorm, you keep moving toward a safe shelter."
https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-myths

[coopec43]

Has anyone posted this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bpjFGVbc-8

[kmason]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Based upon the nature of your question, I suspect that to do so, would be pointless. You'd not likely read/understand such evidence.
It's already been posted, on CF, many times, in the past.

See also ➥ https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3292460

I stand corrected and better informed. Lightening rods and grounding wires do not attract lightening. Thank you and the other posters for pointing me to the data.

I have been wrong before and I suspect I will be wrong several more times in my life. I don't have a compelling desire to be correct on the internet with a bunch of anonymous individuals. I just hope that I don't sink to the level where I have to belittle or personally attack someone.

[kmason]

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari

Because things - even metal things - don't "attract" lightning. This is simply a common myth. So you can't "attract" lightning with a grounded mast any more than with an ungrounded one. Even so Your little bit of aluminum 50 ft high is not particularly impressive vs a giant bloody ocean of salt water to lightning charge thats developed hundreds of miles in nonconductive empty air because it is a metal conductor. Wooden masts get hit too as do trees. Because they're pointy and tall not because theyre grounded or metal conductors

"Myth: Structures with metal, or metal on the body (jewelry, cell phones,Mp3 players, watches, etc), attract lightning.
Fact: Height, pointy shape, and isolation are the dominant factors controlling where a lightning bolt will strike. The presence of metal makes absolutely no difference on where lightning strikes..."

https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-myths

However I too feel uncomfotrable with a tall pointy isolated mast in a flat ocean and frankly i would assume I'm going to get hit just out of dumb luck as well as divine retribution regardless of the science of whether I'm "attracting" lightning or not which is why I grounded everything


Look regardless of whether you believe in the effectiveness of lightning mitigation or not the "cost" of installing a grounding plate is tiny compared to the "cost" of a strike as unlikely as it may be so rationally i swallowed my ego and said gee maybe I should reconsider (especially when I saw how the boltbhad punched through the prop shaft. Important to keep grounding wire off hull interior obviously ...an elongate hole in a hard to reach place with a shaft in the way. What a batch to plug up. )

This is also why I have a life raft. Or wear seatbelts. Or a mask nowadays.

You however, do you.

The old "electricity seeks the easiest path to ground" saying that people mindlessly repeat is proof of the other old saying that a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Thank you for your well researched and thought out response. You are absolutely correct and I'm less ignorant after reading the links you presented. The things I don't know could fill several warehouses with little room to spare. I will also probably be "mindless" in many other areas until educated further. I don't know and I do not claim to know everything.

I don't have an overriding desire to be correct on the internet nor am I compelled to reply with personal attacks to get a point across.

My apologies for being wrong.

[markcouz]

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari

[




Once more just to be clear the cellphone is not meant to be the same as a lightning bolt. WHIle we can't test the effectiveness of a faraday box gainst lightning without lightning (and we can't make that on demand very easily) we can use cellphone reception as an approximation, the idea being that
If there is cellphone reception inside your faraday cage then it probably can't block a lightning induced charge either. so it sets a ntestAble minimum standard thats all
(of course that doesn't mean if there's no receptionthen you're guaranteed a working Farwdwy cage)


And we can see from experimentation that material with about 1/2" gap sizes allows cellphone reception so again the idea is to view that as a maxx size for any gaps in your faraday box which ideally should have no gaps but you can always test your own faraday arrangement. There are no guarantees with lightning and the military spends huge amounts emp- hardening things including special metallic foam gaskets on electronics etc

The cellphone reception theory seemed reasonable to me so I tested it using my microwave and 2 very similar looking tin boxes.

Microwave - rings
Ouma rusks- rings
Kellogs corn flakes - no ring!

I will be putting my trust in Kellogs as my Faraday cage for vital kit (tablet, 2way radio, cell phone, epirb if it will fit).

[Suliwar]

During thunderstorms at sea, we protect our handheld electronics by putting them into our metal cooking pots and by putting the (metal) lid on top. With closed metal cooking pots there are no holes at all in the metal enclosure surrounding the electronics inside. creating thereby a perfect Faraday-cage protection for all frequencies.

This is the third time I repeat this very simple idea on this forum, but never got any response. I wonder why?