What else can be improved in the marine electronics space?

[Lake-Effect]

Good thread! (I also have professional involvement with hardware and software, and still an active hacker)

what's needed:

My number one with a bullet: an AFFORDABLE marine/environmentally hardened, sunlight-readable, robust touchscreen display unit (with optional custom button/wheel/joystick controls) that supports modern network standards. Yes, the marine-only market is not big enough, but there would also be demand from industrial and mobile users. We already have enough central brains available, including hardened industrial single-board computers.

I have seen the point of pricy dedicated marine hardware, but then a CDN$400 Raymarine depth instrument with Airmar transducer failed on us after 7 years of light use... . I replaced it with a $140 Garmin fishfinder (with transducer) and it blows the Raymarine away... except for readability in some conditions. But this is manageable. So not all marine manufacturers are dinosaurs.

One area that's destined for growth: boat monitoring. There's been $$$ systems used by megayachts for a while now. What if you could spend less than $100 for hardware and ~$30 a year for remote monitoring of your boat? Eg get notice sent to your phone that shorepower is off, or the battery is near discharged? Nuff said

[goboatingnow]

NMEA 2000 should have been the marine equivalent of USB-C but only Furuno, as far as I am aware, used a standard Ethernet connector. Which is all 2000 is. The rest of them went proprietary with the aim of locking the consumer in - a la Apple.

Nmea2000 is can , very different to Ethernet , most of the companies use a standard nmea2000 connector

The primary issue is the nmea 2000 protocol is essentially private

[RaymondR]

From Wikipedia:

NMEA 2000, abbreviated to NMEA2k or N2K and standardised as IEC 61162-3, is a plug-and-play communications standard used for connecting marine sensors and display units within ships and boats. Communication runs at 250 kilobits-per-second and allows any sensor to talk to any display unit or other device compatible with NMEA 2000 protocols. Electrically, NMEA 2000 is compatible with the Controller Area Network ("CAN Bus") used on road vehicles and fuel engines. The higher-level protocol format is based on SAE J1939, with specific messages for the marine environment. Raymarine SeaTalk 2, Raymarine SeaTalkNG, Simrad Simnet, and Furuno CAN are rebranded implementations of NMEA 2000, though may use physical connectors different from the standardised DeviceNet Micro-C M12 5-pin screw connector, all of which are electrically compatible and can be directly connected.

The protocol is used to create a network of electronic devices—chiefly marine instruments—on a boat. Various instruments that meet the NMEA 2000 standard are connected to one central cable, known as a backbone. The backbone powers each instrument and relays data among all of the instruments on the network. This allows one display unit to show many different types of information. It also allows the instruments to work together, since they share data. NMEA 2000 is meant to be "plug and play" to allow devices made by different manufacturers to communicate with each other.

I tend to disagree with the part where it says that the backbone provides the power for the instrument. Generally the backbone provides the power for the NMEA transceiver in each instrument with the rest of the instrument being powered by a source independent of the NMEA backbone, but not always if the instrument only requires minimal power such as mast top wind instrument sensors.

Whilst the cabling system is relatively expensive it is also very utilitarian allowing simple and easy additions of devices. The more expensive bits do tend to be the adapter cables from the various instrument manufacturers proprietory connectors to the standard NMEA 2000 cabling. I like the plug end seals believing they give a better more reliable seal than O rings and the click lock tightening of the plug and socket sets which prevents vibration loosening of the connectors.

I suspect that if you wanted to forgo the expense of the off the shelf cabling system there's nothing to stop you from implementing your own with computer data cable and soldered connections for the drops provided one could source the proprietory instrument end connectors.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

One area that's destined for growth: boat monitoring. There's been $$$ systems used by megayachts for a while now. What if you could spend less than $100 for hardware and ~$30 a year for remote monitoring of your boat? Eg get notice sent to your phone that shorepower is off, or the battery is near discharged? Nuff said

As I posted earler, I've just invested in one that does that and way, way more and it's not $$$ but still $$. Totally agree this segment of the market will grow. It was literally a no brainer when it was explained to me what the system would supply. Geofence, all the instrument readings, and 3 input and 2 I/O circuits.

Still, I'd question what you would get for $100. That's pretty cheap/chintzy for the marine industry. Monitoring for $30? Maybe if you could use a marina wifi but I don't think there is a cell service at that price point. What the bonus of using the system I just bought is that you get the readings on your phone when anchored. No more rushing to see if your baby is ok, you can see the data anywhere, anytime.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Totally agree [the monitoring] segment of the market will grow. It was literally a no brainer when it was explained to me what the system would supply. Geofence, all the instrument readings, and 3 input and 2 I/O circuits.

Still, I'd question what you would get for $100. That's pretty cheap/chintzy for the marine industry. Monitoring for $30? Maybe if you could use a marina wifi but I don't think there is a cell service at that price point. What the bonus of using the system I just bought is that you get the readings on your phone when anchored. No more rushing to see if your baby is ok, you can see the data anywhere, anytime.

Yup. I've been following the evolution of this system. Not quite down to $100/$30, but they do have a pretty solid cellular offering at the $240/$100 point, which is pretty good.

Still, for the many punters like me with inexpensive boats that spend too much of their life at the dock or on the hard, a cheap marina-wifi-based solution would be more than sufficient. If you're just a weekend cruiser, and more than an hour from your boat, I'm sure you'd want to find out that your battery is near flat before you get there, or that the bilge pump is running too often. I've made basic versions using a <$10 IoT board.

[goboatingnow]

I tend to disagree with the part where it says that the backbone provides the power for the instrument. Generally the backbone provides the power for the NMEA transceiver in each instrument with the rest of the instrument being powered by a source independent of the NMEA backbone, but not always if the instrument only requires minimal power such as mast top wind instrument sensors.

Nmea 2000 has specific support for powering the local device ( the LEN value ) most simple instruments like control heads and multi function instruments ( as opposed to MFDs) are these days powered from the nmea 2000 cable

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Yup. I've been following the evolution of this system. Not quite down to $100/$30, but they do have a pretty solid cellular offering at the $240/$100 point, which is pretty good.

Still, for the many punters like me with inexpensive boats that spend too much of their life at the dock or on the hard, a cheap marina-wifi-based solution would be more than sufficient. If you're just a weekend cruiser, and more than an hour from your boat, I'm sure you'd want to find out that your battery is near flat before you get there, or that the bilge pump is running too often. I've made basic versions using a <$10 IoT board.

Looks good for your stated use. To me, I wouldn't want one as it really does look cheap/chintzy and non-marinized.

Have there been many threads here about monitoring systems? I don't recall them. Anyway, since buying one, it's interesting the thought process of what you want to monitor and how. I started out thinking my high water alarms, but now will probably actually monitor the bilge pump itself. I mean, if it works, the high water alarm will never go off but you have a leak. Motion detectors? Door alarms?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Looks good for your stated use. To me, I wouldn't want one as it really does look cheap/chintzy and non-marinized.
...
Anyway, since buying [a monitoring system], it's interesting the thought process of what you want to monitor and how. I started out thinking my high water alarms, but now will probably actually monitor the bilge pump itself. I mean, if it works, the high water alarm will never go off but you have a leak. Motion detectors? Door alarms?

I haven't had one in my hand, but if the Floathub unit's PC board is reasonably designed and conformal-coated, it would be as marinized as a Raymarine wheel-pilot brain. And one can always put it in a sealed case with wire glands.

For a bigger boat like yours, the easiest approach would probably be to have a conventional fire/intrusion alarm system installed, and watch for an alarm with one input of the monitoring unit. It's also easy to trigger the send of a camera image or stream via wifi or cell.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I haven't had one in my hand, but if the Floathub unit's PC board is reasonably designed and conformal-coated, it would be as marinized as a Raymarine wheel-pilot brain. And one can always put it in a sealed case with wire glands.

For a bigger boat like yours, the easiest approach would probably be to have a conventional fire/intrusion alarm system installed, and watch for an alarm with one input of the monitoring unit. It's also easy to trigger the send of a camera image or stream via wifi or cell.

I'm really not a techie. One drawback of a system like the Vesper with a built-in data chip is that you have to use their connection. If they had it where you could use theirs or a wifi hotspot it would be better, then if you wanted to put a camera in you could stream it. I really don't want to pay for both. I also don't want too complicated of a system as then it will be unlikely to be used.

But back to your original comment, monitoring systems are going to be in greater demand. Think about all the new covid "boaters". These guys are going to need something to watch their new boat as it sits at the dock.

[SailingPNW]

Originally Posted by Palarran

I'm really not a techie. One drawback of a system like the Vesper with a built-in data chip is that you have to use their connection. If they had it where you could use theirs or a wifi hotspot it would be better, then if you wanted to put a camera in you could stream it. I really don't want to pay for both. I also don't want too complicated of a system as then it will be unlikely to be used.



But back to your original comment, monitoring systems are going to be in greater demand. Think about all the new covid "boaters". These guys are going to need something to watch their new boat as it sits at the dock.

The problem with using wifi or your phones hotspot is that your required to be on your boat for it to work, or at a dock where you have wifi, once your anchored out you lose all your ability to get alerts. For me I have also found that while cruising I rarely find any type of internet access with my wifi extender that I can connect to.

For me getting alerts when I am anchored would be more important. That said I think the new Vesper Cortex can actually join a wifi network, and I imagine it's capable of sending alerts by wifi, so even for people who really only need to monitor their boat at the dock assuming they had some sort of internet access it should be possible.

I am pretty intrigued by the Cortex and will be interested to see more feedback on it, as well as I wonder if any other companies will try to improve their VHF/AIS offerings to compete.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by SailingPNW

The problem with using wifi or your phones hotspot is that your required to be on your boat for it to work, or at a dock where you have wifi, once your anchored out you lose all your ability to get alerts. For me I have also found that while cruising I rarely find any type of internet access with my wifi extender that I can connect to.

For me getting alerts when I am anchored would be more important. That said I think the new Vesper Cortex can actually join a wifi network, and I imagine it's capable of sending alerts by wifi, so even for people who really only need to monitor their boat at the dock assuming they had some sort of internet access it should be possible.

I am pretty intrigued by the Cortex and will be interested to see more feedback on it, as well as I wonder if any other companies will try to improve their VHF/AIS offerings to compete.

I wasn't imagining using my phone as the hotspot but rather an actual wifi hotspot. We have had them in Greece and the Bahamas and are very nice for providing anyone on board internet access. My understanding of the Cortex is that it creates it's own wifi network for providing info to your phone or tablet. I don't know if that means when your using that wifi, you can't get internet at the same time. I'll be interesting.

One thing that is strange is the lack of installation reviews about the Cortex so far. It's only been out for 4 months but I'd think someone would have posted a detailed review by now.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by SailingPNW

The problem with using wifi or your phones hotspot is that your required to be on your boat for it to work, or at a dock where you have wifi, once your anchored out you lose all your ability to get alerts. For me I have also found that while cruising I rarely find any type of internet access with my wifi extender that I can connect to.

Understood. For the travelling cruiser, a cell- or wifi- based monitoring system will have limited utility. (A cell-based system would work at or near most population centres.)

But for the majority of boaters whose boats spend 90+% of their time on the dock or on the hard, it would seem to be a cost-effective approach.

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

Whilst the cabling system is relatively expensive it is also very utilitarian allowing simple and easy additions of devices. The more expensive bits do tend to be the adapter cables from the various instrument manufacturers proprietory connectors to the standard NMEA 2000 cabling. I like the plug end seals believing they give a better more reliable seal than O rings and the click lock tightening of the plug and socket sets which prevents vibration loosening of the connectors.

I suspect that if you wanted to forgo the expense of the off the shelf cabling system there's nothing to stop you from implementing your own with computer data cable and soldered connections for the drops provided one could source the proprietory instrument end connectors.

I think the only vendor still running N2K over proprietary cabling and connectors is Raymarine. For a long time Simrad had Simnet, but several years ago they moved products over to use the standard N2K (DeviceNet) connectors.

[SailingPNW]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Understood. For the travelling cruiser, a cell- or wifi- based monitoring system will have limited utility. (A cell-based system would work at or near most population centres.)

But for the majority of boaters whose boats spend 90+% of their time on the dock or on the hard, it would seem to be a cost-effective approach.

Well if you read the Vesper site, the cellular appears to be optional and it says the alerts go out on wifi, so it doesn't look like you need to set it up with cell service to get alerts.

It is an expensive device though, and certainly isn't something that a lot of people on a budget will be opting for, especially I think if their boat is on the hard a lot. However It also might be cheaper to have a simple cell service plan then pay for internet at a marina, but a lot depends on how people use their boat, and if their marina has cheap reliable wireless internet.

Vesper does has a pretty solid track record though, and for a thread about how marine electronics can go in new directions it's a pretty good example.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

I think the only vendor still running N2K over proprietary cabling and connectors is Raymarine. For a long time Simrad had Simnet, but several years ago they moved products over to use the standard N2K (DeviceNet) connectors.

You can easily buy converter connectors to connect to Devicenet connectors from seatalkng