What else can be improved in the marine electronics space?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

People talk about cheap hardware. Have a look at the cost of optically bonded high nit lcds. !!! , these are low volume niche markets , hardware designed for marine use will never be mass market

In terms of electronic systems, what does "marine" mean?

• 12 dc power
• protection from ESD and EMI
• waterproof, impact-resistant, UV-proof
• wide temp and humidity range
• displays - flush-mounting or bushings for mounting hardware
• sunlight-readable, and backlit for night
• locking or secured waterproof connections
• networkable

... I'd think such hardware would find application in construction, industrial control, trains, military, police, off-roading,

btw I should have thought of this earlier: I'd bet most controllers and MFDs use a flavour of Linux more often than Android. Don't you just love closed systems built on open OS's?

[WolfgangSeaLife]

digital Radar, low cost

[kubota]

i spent my life in electronic/ tech research labs. and universties also done 45,000 miles under sail.

when i get on my boat the one thing i really need is a decent sextant light. the little incandescent bulbs go wonky and battery compartments corrode.

last thing i need is more tech in my life. but.....

software open systems have been done to death.
reliability of marine systems is still terrible.
i work with 60ghz wireless devices with 400yrs mean time between failure that i have watched survive tornados and forest fires outdoors for months. why cant marine hdw do that?

lets think open system hardware. not in dsn but in operation. give me a SOC (system on chip)
or fpga based low power generic piece of hdw with a software defined radio i can throw in a locker and reprogram with a laptop to become any other piece of hdw on the boat.

autopilot fails? new head in 5 mins.
ais dead? same spare is now an ais.
vhf radio, that too.

i find in our research redundency with MTTR (mean time to repair) in the 15 min range is far lower cost than trying to make something reliable to start with. and eventually it will fail, prob off coast of nicaragua with no repair depot in site (yep, hapoened).

i use redundent configured rpis now.
watched my $11,000 raymarine stuff fail on a bad passage
while the pis just keep going. $50 fire tablet fails, grab another one. and these are kids toys. lowest level of sophistication.

you create some decent generic configurable open hardware and sell downloadable software modules, even as fee for service, you got something.

i dont need an ais day sailing the chesapeake, nice to have in shipping lanes in gulf. buy a "hardware" subscription for a month.

oh, and look at new att/verizon netsworks in western hemisphere. 99cents/mo for telemetry data. longer reach than cell.

[dan104]

Great topic - I am a systems designer and developer. When I went to upgrade my sailboat, I looked at what was onboard and worked well and how I could leverage that and make a solid system (Without blowing a wad of cash).
1st Boat had Raymaine ST50 Auto, depth, speed
2nd Garmin 450
3rd TackTick wireless wind
NO Chartplotter


After alot of effort I added the following:
Daisy2 - AIS
GPS - usb Puck

Bullet long range wifi
Abus wifi router
2 - RasberryPI 3+ (both running Openplotter serving different roles)
#1 - Is key SignalK collection point - it collects data from MNEA 183 (SeaTalk via ST60 Tridata NMEA183 ouput)
NMEA 183 Bus via a RS322 USB serial port,
AIS Via Daisy2 USB
GPS Via USB Puck
Wind via USB SDR - to intercept TackTic wireless
#2 runs Opencpn using common data from #1 + it's own GPG Puck as CYA


All systems are connected via both wireless and grounded/sealed CAT5e


My central display is a USB powered 17" display in cabin on swing down from ceiling (Like the minivan's have) which can be seen from cockpit.
Secondary displays are old Ipads which have VNC to remote desktops into the PI's or display common instruments or chartploters from Node.JS using SignalK data
sounds complicated but was quite easy and cheap maybe total $300 max, most pricey component was display $100, AIS was $80 everything else came in at around $30-40 an item. Ipads are throw-away and easy found (I keep 2 around and spares are found from friends old junk drawers).
Under full load I use about 4 amps @ 12V / hour (My house bank has 440 amp/hours and I have 2x 100w solar panels yielding maybe 150w hour.


I use pypilot to drive the autopilot on passage, AIS alerts, and when resting the 2nd Pi plays movies and music while driving me around.



All for the cost of a couple of nice dinners out

[Exile]

A perspective of a non-techy boat owner who does his own DIY installations but is probably less than fully informed. I enjoy the feature-packed, high res, whiz-bang offerings from the recreational marine electronics world as much as anyone, but have come to the conclusion (for me anyway) that they are best enjoyed on other peoples' boats and not mine.

I recently needed to update/replace my two aging Garmin plotters ($2K/per in 2007), and only after Garmin stopped providing firmware updates, post-warranty repairs, or even chart updates (and charts for new regions). Otherwise the two units continue to function just fine using the NMEA 0183 network. Rather than having to install a NMEA 2000 backbone and deal with all the potential/likely(?) integration issues, I opted instead for a ruggedized PC running the latest Windows 10 Pro, and two fully marinized, daylight-res monitors which simply connect up via HDMI & USB. Whether it's OpenCPN, Coastal Explorer (my preference), TimeZero, or other PC-based nav systems, I find them more versatile than what I've seen from Garmin, B&G, Ray, and I also have the same software installed on my laptop for planning and redundancy. A Vesper 8000 wirelessly beams GPS, AIS and instrument data to any device on the boat. I also have a full array of choices when it comes to electronic charting options for anywhere in the world and, perhaps even more importantly, know exactly what they are since they are not proprietary. Being PC-based also allows me to have downloaded pilot charts, light/navaid info, sailing directions, and guidebooks immediately available in a basic and familiar Windows format. While my monitors are touchscreen, I can also use the more convenient (for me) mouse & keyboard. As a final bonus, I can do my passage planning on a cheap 24" flat screen TV from Walmart.

I found a number of companies making marinized, daylight readable monitors & ruggedized PC's, albeit primarily for commercial, law enforcement, and the military. None inexpensive, but this set-up could also be accomplished (if so desired) with a consumer level PC (e.g. Mac-Mini), an inexpensive consumer level monitor down below, and/or a Windows tablet (maybe Android?) with a waterproof cover in the cockpit. So I wouldn't doubt if I'm missing something from the consumer marine electronics world, but I'm not sure what it is. I can certainly see the attraction of MFD's from the big 4 mfgs., for those that prefer everything (incl. radar) displaying on one screen. But then a PC-based system can also get you to the same place (I think), with the possible exception of radar. But I believe there are ways to get that done as well if desired.

As an aside, and again admittedly not being a techy, why is it that NMEA 0183 is a marine industry "standard" but allows mfgs. to use their own proprietary color coding for wires? And why is it that NMEA 2000 is a marine industry "standard" that allows mfgs. to use their own proprietary cabling/connections? On the latter point, someone just mentioned that only Ray does so, but I thought Furuno & Maretron were the only ones that did not (i.e. only ones that use std. NMEA 2K cabling).

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by dan104

My central display is a USB powered 17" display in cabin on swing down from ceiling (Like the minivan's have) which can be seen from cockpit.
Secondary displays are old Ipads which have VNC to remote desktops into the PI's or display common instruments or chartploters from Node.JS using SignalK data

I'm loving that swing-down van monitor idea. That would work on a smaller boat too (maybe something smaller than 17"...). Possibly still a problem seeing it in strong sunlight.

I also respect the ipad. When a group of us chartered in the Caribbean, one person brought their ipad, and I was quite impressed with what they could do with it. It would have been good enough as our primary chartplotter.

My wife is about to get a new ipad, so I'm eyeing the old one

[Auspicious]

There are some important things missing from this discussion. In my experience software developers often do not fully understand what they are building, particularly around edge conditions. In the marine industry we see lots of stupid things from manufacturers. Also in the marine industry, reviewers (magazines, bloggers, etc.) don’t understand software development. Many barely understand more stressing applications and certainly not edge conditions.

Failure modes and effects analysis (FMEA) is disturbingly absent. Environmental factors including electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) and radio frequency information (RFI) don’t get adequate attention. As someone noted there are manufacturing shortfalls in potting and conformal coating. In the end, too many designs assume that everything always works.

I’m a big fan of OpenCPN. It’s in my delivery go-kit with GPS and AIS. I really like being able to quickly update all the charts to the latest before I leave home. The shortfall of OpenCPN is out of their control. Displays and controls aren’t waterproof. You can’t get sunlight readable displays that get bright enough. You can’t dim them enough for sailing at night. Industrial monitors that are waterproof (not resistant) come with price tags that look like a commercial MFD.

Touchscreens, at least offshore in weather, are horrible.

Integrated systems should be treated with suspicion. Think about failure modes. For example, the boat I just delivered had an integrated inverter-charger. A hatch leak led to a blown circuit breaker (buried in the boat and took two days—not full time—to find). Not only did we lose the inverter on a boat that depends on house power, we lost the ability to charge the batteries from the generator. Solar panels could not keep up with refrigeration and autopilot. I’ll take separate charger and inverter every time (and a 12VDC boat please—AC power is for convenience and luxury items).

Originally Posted by Dogscout

In my view the biggest market in marine electronics will be to use the NMEA 2000 network to collect, display and control. More than just the standard suite of plotter, wind, DST, Radar and AP. Garmin and Navico own this business but are not rapidly moving into the Connected Home side of it. I would like to control everything (lights, HVAC, Entertainment, etc) from the Plotter and duplicated on a mobile tablet. I want to monitor the power systems (Batt, solar, hydrogenerator) from the same devices.

This is a stunningly bad idea. See above about EMC and RFI. I’ve delivered boats with RF noise floors so high that the VHF squelch had to be up above halfway. Forget HF/SSB. I’ve seen Iridium GO! light up systems on boats with soft switches.

How would you feel if when you transmit on VHF the integrated system turns off your refrigeration? Or your engine?

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

You can easily buy converter connectors to connect to Devicenet connectors from seatalkng

If I remember correctly the Raymarine connectors have a single extra pin that carries either SeaTalk 1 or NMEA 0183. The idea has merit, and has noted converters are readily available – no electronics in them either, just wires.

I do have one idea that might scratch the OP’s itch. I’m see more and more WiFi systems on board. One boat I delivered had eight access points (APs). All blithely assumed they could be servers. On that boat it took two iPads to fuel. One was for the instrument circuit (Garmin) and one was for the systems (Mastervolt) to control the fuel transfer pump. What would fill a need is an aggregator that could serve as a client to all the other APs and as a central server for consumers on the boat. Include Ethernet ports so you can plug in a Ubiquiti Bullet or other WiFi range extender. Be sure it supports Iridium GO!. Follow the Starlink beta information so someday (my money is three to five years) you can support that. Check for compatibility with online updates for MFDs such as Garmin. Watch the radar plug-ins for OpenCPN and be sure not to break anything there.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Displays and controls aren’t waterproof. You can’t get sunlight readable displays that get bright enough. You can’t dim them enough for sailing at night. Industrial monitors that are waterproof (not resistant) come with price tags that look like a commercial MFD.

Touchscreens, at least offshore in weather, are horrible.

https://www.argonautcomputer.com/col...arine-displays

As for touchscreen displays, you can use a mouse and keyboard. Both can be waterproof and wireless. I found them reasonably priced from the medical supply industry.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Exile

As for touchscreen displays, you can use a mouse and keyboard. Both can be waterproof and wireless. I found them reasonably priced from the medical supply industry.

Not sure how that will work offshore in the cockpit.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Not sure how that will work offshore in the cockpit.

Weatherproof joysticks, rotary encoders and buttons (like the controls currently on MFDs) are possible. Maybe as a separate unit connected by some weatherproof USB connection.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Not sure how that will work offshore in the cockpit.

I'll let you know as soon as I have the opportunity to actually sail somewhere! I'm actually pretty optimistic -- I have the monitor installed on a Ram mount under the dodger. It should (mostly) stay reasonably dry, but as you say the touchscreen doesn't work as well as its billing. With a downstairs monitor at the nav station (and repeated elsewhere) for planning, etc., the only time I envision needing finer control over the cockpit monitor is during inshore piloting. The rest of the time I'm offshore and generally not spending most of my time behind the helm. But then it doesn't sound like the touchscreens on the main brand plotters/MFD's are any better in cold, wet conditions, although Ray and maybe others make hybrid touch models which offer push-button interfaces.

[Exile]

https://www.wetkeys.com

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by dan104

Great topic - I am a systems designer and developer. When I went to upgrade my sailboat, I looked at what was onboard and worked well and how I could leverage that and make a solid system (Without blowing a wad of cash).
1st Boat had Raymaine ST50 Auto, depth, speed
2nd Garmin 450
3rd TackTick wireless wind
NO Chartplotter

After alot of effort I added the following:
Daisy2 - AIS
GPS - usb Puck
Bullet long range wifi
Abus wifi router
2 - RasberryPI 3+ (both running Openplotter serving different roles)
#1 - Is key SignalK collection point - it collects data from MNEA 183 (SeaTalk via ST60 Tridata NMEA183 ouput)
NMEA 183 Bus via a RS322 USB serial port,
AIS Via Daisy2 USB
GPS Via USB Puck
Wind via USB SDR - to intercept TackTic wireless
#2 runs Opencpn using common data from #1 + it's own GPG Puck as CYA
All systems are connected via both wireless and grounded/sealed CAT5e
My central display is a USB powered 17" display in cabin on swing down from ceiling (Like the minivan's have) which can be seen from cockpit.
Secondary displays are old Ipads which have VNC to remote desktops into the PI's or display common instruments or chartploters from Node.JS using SignalK data
sounds complicated but was quite easy and cheap maybe total $300 max, most pricey component was display $100, AIS was $80 everything else came in at around $30-40 an item. Ipads are throw-away and easy found (I keep 2 around and spares are found from friends old junk drawers).
Under full load I use about 4 amps @ 12V / hour (My house bank has 440 amp/hours and I have 2x 100w solar panels yielding maybe 150w hour.

I use pypilot to drive the autopilot on passage, AIS alerts, and when resting the 2nd Pi plays movies and music while driving me around.

All for the cost of a couple of nice dinners out

Kidding aside, write all the above up in an e-book and self-publish on Amazon $5 a pop. You sort of don't have to leave your chair. Provide instructions starting with sitting down in front of Amazon ordering parts, finish with turning everything on, common fault-finding skills/techniques that doesn't include "post your data sentences on something.com".

Add info on a sound AIS transceiver installation and charge $10.

Add info on a sound radar installation and charge $15.

Add info on a sound engine monitoring installation (e.g. Arduino fed to and displayed) and charge $25

Identify all part numbers in the book. Update the book over time if you want to keep selling books.

In the meantime for folks who don't know how to and/or don't get off on parsing data sentences etc have to resort to this guy's/that guy's website on how they did it, haphazardly putting things together. I don't need any particular system, just one that is internally valid/works together. Being flip about the book prices, but you get my drift.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Exile

https://www.wetkeys.com

Where do they go? If you say your lap I'll keel haul you. *grin*

I don't see them as practical at all in the cockpit offshore in weather.

[Captain Kdub]

At Present, I would look at COMMS, Specifically SSB GMDSS/DCS....Huge Gap in the market at present that ICOM has pretty much sewn up the market at a price point around $3K for a complete system..... Far too expensive for the average Yachtie....What's the benefit....long range communications at sea.
Send me a PM with your contact details and I can give you the low down and guidance.