Why don't production boats have external alternator regulation

[DougMc]

Originally Posted by carraiguna

I purchased the kit from Balmar for my Valeo 120 amp alternator and it works great. I have Lithium batteries and I used the setting to limit the output to 80 amps continuous and max temperature of 100 degrees.
Very happy with the results.

Thanks for your input. I'm seriously contemplating that kit. Can you describe how it improved the performance of your system?
Thx
Doug

[witzgall]

The MC-618 works great with Lithium. If you have a communicating BMS that has external relay control, you can use that turn on/off the regulator if the battery does not want charge. The key with Lithium batteries is to use an alt temp sensor, and if you are prone to cold weather sailing, use the batt temp sensor as well. We have thousands of lithium batteries charging with this regulator in both vehicles and boats.

PS - Add an APM for additional alt protection from disconnects/voltage spikes.

Chris

Originally Posted by DougMc

Hi Chris,
Thanks for joining in. That exact kit is one of the approaches I am seriously considering taking. My only hesitation is that I think I'll be converting to lithium on the next battery replacement, and I am wondering if the Wakespeed may offer more "time-proof" communication options. However, I don't want to over-complicate things more than I have to!
Perhaps you can reassure me that the 618 can play nice with lithium BMS systems?
Thanks
Doug

[DougMc]

Thanks Chris,

So would the relay simply interrupt the wire (terminal 3) to the ignition?
With the Valeo alternator, do you have a recommended temperature limit?

Thanks very much.
Doug

Originally Posted by witzgall

The MC-618 works great with Lithium. If you have a communicating BMS that has external relay control, you can use that turn on/off the regulator if the battery does not want charge. The key with Lithium batteries is to use an alt temp sensor, and if you are prone to cold weather sailing, use the batt temp sensor as well. We have thousands of lithium batteries charging with this regulator in both vehicles and boats.

PS - Add an APM for additional alt protection from disconnects/voltage spikes.

Chris

[witzgall]

You want the BMS to control power to the ignition circuit.

The lithium profile on the MC-618 has a preset temp limit of 90C.

Chris

[Simi 60]

Check the RPM of your engine/alt pulley and check against Balmar alt specs

I very nearly pulled the trigger on a Balmar alt and was warned off by another boater because our engine and pulley don't spin fast enough.
A Leese Neville or Delco Remy alt has a far better result for us at lower RPM
But I will still pair it with a mc624 reg

[Senojev]

No engine manufacturer I know of fits externally regulated alternators. Probably because of cost and the fact that the boat manufacturer will have to increase their cost for external regulation and it is not useful but for the cruising user which is a minority.

Balmar alternators are a very good option but priced way out of line. Consider a Leece or Delco Remy for less than half the price.even converted for external regulation and a lot more sizes and mounting options.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Senojev

Balmar alternators are a very good option but priced way out of line.

Maybe, but my alternator is 22 years and the only reason I have had to replace the regulator is because of a lighting near hit

[CarlF]

1) The reason Beneteau doesn't put in external regulators is that they buy Yanmar engines. Yanmar doesn't offer an option for external regulators. The reason Yanmar doesn't offer it is that the vast majority of their engines are going into boats where the internally regulated Valeo works just fine. These boats typically have a couple of LA or AGM Group 27 batteries bought from West Marine. 95% of Yanmar owners would screw up the programming on an external regulator and destroy their batteries. There's nothing to set on the Valeo.

2) The external regulation upgrade to the Valeo works fine but you are then still stuck with an alternator that only puts out 40-50 amps once it's heated up. If you are charging Lithium batteries, you'll need to use the temperature sensor to cut back the charging rate or the alternator will burn up after running several hours at full tilt charging a big lithium bank. This is a lot of work and money to get 50 amps. That's why many people putting in lithium batteries with Yanmar powered boats use the Valeo to charge an AGM start battery and then a DC-DC charger to put a measly 30 amps into the house bank - which won't overload the Valeo or damage the Lithiums (and then do most of their Lithium charging with solar and genset)

3) So I would leave it as is until you do your upgrade to Lithium batteries. At that point consider a Balmar XT170 alternator which will fit in place of your Valeo (note that if you have a Vbelt you'll also have to upgrade to a sepertentine belt to handle the load). These Balmar XT's are especially designed to handle the heat and endurance needed to charge a lithium bank and will put out 150amps all day long. You can use either the Balmar 618 or Wakespeed regulator. Your lithium installation will likely also include larger cables to handle the loads, equal length cables if more than 2 batteries, Class T fuses, and probably a DC-DC charger. But all of this will be part of your planning for the lithium installation and is a problem for another day.

[patprice]

Be mindful that an external regulator will put more load on the alternator drive belt system. In my case I have to tighten the belt more often and there is black rubber dust from the belt.
But I love the increased amps!

[moseriw]

Well you answered your question by yourself. Almost all boats are designed to go into the charter business now and the weekly charter "so called" captains are usually not trained enough not to go to a marina every night. By then they connect 110/230VAC and do forget the rest.

[Nicholson58]

Why are thousands of expensive new homes built in Florida wit zero insulation in the walls? Because most customers don’t know or understand the difference or need.

Easy to modify your alternators to external regulation or take it to a rebuilder shop. YouTube and or the manufacture’s site will reveal all.

There is a lot that should be on a production boat that is not. Most boats are dock queens connected to shore power every night. The right stuff makes the system too complicated for their owners. Either look for a blue water boat or fix it yourself.

[TPG]

I put Balmar 618's on my brand new factory installed alternators on my Yanmars, they were the 125 amp Valeo's that come stock. We installed a large Lifepo4 house bank and wanted to protect the alternators which we set up to directly charge them. (House bank charges the start batt's via DC/DC chargers.)

Works great, as advertised by everyone. Albeit the 618's are a bit tricky to program using the little magnetic reed switch, but I know there is a bluetooth gateway that you can buy from Balmar to do it with an app.

I learned about Wakespeed after I'd purchased Balmar, and their unit looks very slick. Not sure which one is better but I'm happy with my setup. Bottom line, you really need protection for your alternators if you're going lithium. Otherwise sounds like most people don't worry about external regulation from guys I've talked to.

We have a large solar array and never worry about charging unless it's very cloudy several days in a row, at which point we can charge via engines. So far it's worked out great.

[moseriw]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Why are thousands of expensive new homes built in Florida wit zero insulation in the walls? Because most customers don’t know or understand the difference or need.

Easy to modify your alternators to external regulation or take it to a rebuilder shop. YouTube and or the manufacture’s site will reveal all.

There is a lot that should be on a production boat that is not. Most boats are dock queens connected to shore power every night. The right stuff makes the system too complicated for their owners. Either look for a blue water boat or fix it yourself.

Which leads to the question:
a yogurt cup for 200.000 USD or
a bluewater cruiser for 800.000 USD


hard to decide... unless money is not an asset.

[DougMc]

Yep, all makes sense to me, and I have looked at the common-rail-sized version of the XT170.

As I mentioned, I'm adding some solar but, since I'll be on the boat for 5 weeks soon, I'm still tempted to experiment with (probably) the wakespeed to see if I can get a bit more out of the Valeo without overheating it. I realize the gain will likely be modest, and cooling dependent, but I doubt it will be wasted money/effort because I'm limited with the amount of solar I can add. I already have a serpentine belt so, when the time comes, the XT-170-CR should be a fairly easy drop in.

I just think it's really ugly to be running a diesel any more than necessary to charge batteries...

Doug

Originally Posted by CarlF

1) The reason Beneteau doesn't put in external regulators is that they buy Yanmar engines. Yanmar doesn't offer an option for external regulators. The reason Yanmar doesn't offer it is that the vast majority of their engines are going into boats where the internally regulated Valeo works just fine. These boats typically have a couple of LA or AGM Group 27 batteries bought from West Marine. 95% of Yanmar owners would screw up the programming on an external regulator and destroy their batteries. There's nothing to set on the Valeo.

2) The external regulation upgrade to the Valeo works fine but you are then still stuck with an alternator that only puts out 40-50 amps once it's heated up. If you are charging Lithium batteries, you'll need to use the temperature sensor to cut back the charging rate or the alternator will burn up after running several hours at full tilt charging a big lithium bank. This is a lot of work and money to get 50 amps. That's why many people putting in lithium batteries with Yanmar powered boats use the Valeo to charge an AGM start battery and then a DC-DC charger to put a measly 30 amps into the house bank - which won't overload the Valeo or damage the Lithiums (and then do most of their Lithium charging with solar and genset)

3) So I would leave it as is until you do your upgrade to Lithium batteries. At that point consider a Balmar XT170 alternator which will fit in place of your Valeo (note that if you have a Vbelt you'll also have to upgrade to a sepertentine belt to handle the load). These Balmar XT's are especially designed to handle the heat and endurance needed to charge a lithium bank and will put out 150amps all day long. You can use either the Balmar 618 or Wakespeed regulator. Your lithium installation will likely also include larger cables to handle the loads, equal length cables if more than 2 batteries, Class T fuses, and probably a DC-DC charger. But all of this will be part of your planning for the lithium installation and is a problem for another day.

[pbmaise]

On this issue I fall in line with the KISS principle. I had an external regulator it was fine and never failed. What failed was the alternator. After years of service this is a normal and customary repair. It is why I carried a spare. The new alternator was slightly different and contained a built in regulator. And that was now a problem.

Now I had to decide remote from any support how to bypass the internal regulator and wire it to the external regulator. I was worried if I did it incorrectly, I would toast the new alternator.

It was far easier to not change the wiring of the new alternator. So I defeated the external regulator. Therefore, if you go the external regulator route....I recommend you have good documentation on how to defeat the internal regulator of a replacement alternator.

Like others correctly pointed out, most of us have solar controllers today that can be correctly set to charge up the batteries according to their type. The alternator for most of us only provides bulk charging when underway at night.