Windows vs Linux vs MacOS vs Others

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Invictus69

I have to admit, never heard about this before but it looks like it has everything a cruising sailor needs. I am yet to test it but compliments and well done to the author(s) for the effort.

Anybody else with a practical experience with Navigatrix?

Thanks for sharing!

Used it a while ago and it was pretty comprehensive, these days imho a Raspberry Pi running openplotter could well be as good as it gets for an onboard computer, lots of ways to get sensors in plus signalk so not limited by nmea sentences, multiplexes everything out to wifi. Pulls about 0.3a with the monitor off (can be run with no monitor using a tablet).

[muttnik]

Originally Posted by Invictus69

Wondering whether Linux can be used as the main (and only) OS onboard or for whatever reasons (mainly convenient apps) Windows or MacOS must be available as well?

Thought it was worth re-iterating the question. These discussions to have a tendency to drift off into people eulogising their favourite OS in general terms.

Choice for an onboard laptop should probably take into account, in order:
* Application support
* Ease of use
* Cost

The OP can make their own decision on the last point (personally I would not like my fancy macbook pro on the chart table in bad weather). Ease of use is a lot about what you're familiar with and if you're just using a few basic programs you hardly need to be a "power user". So choosing based on app availability makes sense.

If a manufacturer makes a non-mobile app to configure a device, it *will* run on windows. It *may* run on OS X. It probably won't run on Linux. Examples from my own boat:
- The set-up software for my AIS was supplied as windows-only
- To update my Navionics charts, I need windows or OS X (no Linux)
- A bit obsolete so less convincing but if I wanted to mirror my (7 year old) plotter on a laptop I'd need Raymarine's Raytech software which is Windows only

In my first year of boat ownership I signed up for Reeds online almanac. It uses adobe AIR. AIR on Linux never really worked and they pulled support for it.

For navigation programs, yes OpenCPN runs on all 3 with OS X perhaps receiving less testing so possibly being prone to a few more problems. However, some chart sources are windows only due to the licensing scheme. For us in the UK this was significant as the only legal, up to date, reasonably priced charts for OCPN were windows only. This changed a few months ago with the new deal O-Charts has with UKHO.

Regarding other nav program choices? Well take a look. Just about all the commercial stuff is Windows from the budget choices to the super-flashy stuff with manufacturer tie-ins like maxsea.

Satphones? Stuff for SSB radio? I'm no expert there but there seemed to be more windowsy stuff out there.

Running such things in a virtual machine (which costs additional money for the windows licence) makes little sense for most people: why not just run the one OS you can get away with? Wine is a faff and has limited use cases.

Between buying my first laptop in '96 and buying my first boat in 2010 my first task with a new laptop would always be to take out the original disk, install the biggest that would fit and install Linux. The laptop I bought in 2010 I kept dual boot for the first time simply because of the marine stuff. The average user doesn't want to maintain *two* OSes though and doesn't need Linux what what I needed Linux for.

[EDIT: NOTE: The above is my view on best laptop tool for the average boater. If using a little single board computer as an integrated part of your boat systems to gather and distribute sensor data etc...well obvs Linux all the way...although...I've just realised I haven't tried compiling kplex under Plan9...)]

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by sy_gilana

Intel® Pentium(R) CPU P6100 @ 2.00GHz × 2

Lenovo G560 2012 model. 6 gig ram and 250gig SDD.

Arghhhh. C'mon. So you ARE more loaded. Look up the power of your processor vs. ours:

Intel Pentium P6100 vs Celeron N3050

In this case Windows 10 Pro beats Linux hands down. I would suggest the factor x3.

What do you think?

Love,
b.

[GrowleyMonster]

In all fairness, I will point out that the most glaring faults and shortcomings of Windows are not issues with a computer if it is never networked with other computers, particularly over an internet connection. A totally isolated computer isn't remotely exploitable and isn't even exposed to virii or malware. And if you can't download updates anyway, who cares if they are slow in being released?

I think it has been demonstrated here that a windoze computer can be made to run with a fairly high degree of efficiency, surpassing many less optimized Linux systems where the owner doesn't care to customize and optimize things, which is usually the case. The overwhelming marketing clout of MS means that commercial software is going to be aimed primarily at the big dollar market, i.e. Windows users. I still see Linux overall as being superior to any closed source OS, even for use afloat, but it is not the end of the world if someone simply does not want to upgrade their boat's computers to Linux.

Me, I do not care for the obvious risks of connecting to the internet or sharing media with a windows computer. The inherent security of Linux and similar systems that require root access to make system changes, etc is a huge plus. The fact that anyone can see and modify the source code ensures that exploits are found and patched quickly and that such patches are reviewed by anyone who cares to do so. This umbrella of protection extends over those like myself who are not skilled programmers. The power of the Terminal far surpasses that of the DOS command line. NO WAY would I ever go back to Windows for my home computing! Why do you thing antivirus/antimalware software is updated so often? When is it updated? Mostly AFTER bad stuff is happening due to a new exploit. That means there is a window of vulnerability between the time a new ugly bit of code is first unleashed on the public, and the fix is released to licensed users of the various security packages. Much better to have a system that is inherently resistant to damage or exploit in the first place. Anyway, Linux for obvious reasons is my home OS now. Since I live on my boat, it is of course my boat's OS as well. I have found ONE app that I need to use that does not run under Linux and has no Linux equivelant, (the configuration app for my motor controller) but it has been ported to Android and so I got that covered now. Wine has poor to nonexistent support for USB connection. And VB plugins don't work well or at all outside of a VM. That's about it. Mucho pro, poco con.

If you are intimidated by Linux (and the average person these days should NOT be), stick with Windows for marine use. If you want to push the envelope, try Linux on PC, or Raspberry Pi. You won't be sorry.

[transmitterdan]

It is easy to infect a computer with a virus simply by inserting a USB drive that is itself infected. And you cannot protect any computer unless you keep it current with all the latest updates. It is futile to think simply disconnecting from the internet will save you from grief.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

It is easy to infect a computer with a virus simply by inserting a USB drive that is itself infected. And you cannot protect any computer unless you keep it current with all the latest updates. It is futile to think simply disconnecting from the internet will save you from grief.

That is very true. So if you are running windows, don't share writable media with other computers. There was a time (pre internet) when 99% of all malware was spread via floppy disk. And keeping your system current with updates only protects from exploits that have been addressed by the last update. A new virus could have been released an hour ago and your most recent update is probably days or weeks old.

[sy_gilana]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Arghhhh. C'mon. So you ARE more loaded. Look up the power of your processor vs. ours:

Intel Pentium P6100 vs Celeron N3050

In this case Windows 10 Pro beats Linux hands down. I would suggest the factor x3.

What do you think?

Love,
b.

Yea, Love back at ya! I don't think my Linux is more loaded, but that is not my reason for changing to Linux.
I got really upset with windows, and I will never go back. I was running 7 and an update came along that disabled my anti virus, then I had to remove the update, he next trick was it did not boot, and It was in a catch 22, need this to fix but cant install because the one you have is newer, blah blah. So I formatted the drive, installed Mint, and I have no regrets whatsoever. Its so much faster, easier, and things just work. No amount of convincing will ever get me back to windows, which I never liked from the beginning, moving from CPM>Dos>OS2>Windows and OSX>Linux.

My macbook pro, is still in the cupboard broken and useless, but cant bring myself to throw away the most expensive laptop I ever owned. Maybe should sell it on eBay as parts.

I like the freedom of not being owned by the OS. Nothing is going to expire, or require updating, or force me to anything with fine print thats too long to read.

So, in summary, I suggest to the OP to try different systems and choose what you like. For me, its Linux but for you it could be anything else, and thats freedom too.

[Invictus69]

Originally Posted by conachair

Used it a while ago and it was pretty comprehensive, these days imho a Raspberry Pi running openplotter could well be as good as it gets for an onboard computer, lots of ways to get sensors in plus signalk so not limited by nmea sentences, multiplexes everything out to wifi. Pulls about 0.3a with the monitor off (can be run with no monitor using a tablet).

Did a test drive with Navigatrix over the weekend (only with a sight of water from my window, for full disclaimer) and was pleasantly surprised.

It is based on Lubuntu/LXDE desktop which is simple and straight forward. Nice and smart choice of all-you-need apps for a low-resources laptops.

Always room for improvement, but they did a pretty good job. I assume connectivity with sensors/other devices should work well.

I am wondering if there is a broader user base as I don't see any dedicated threads or discussions. It seems to be under-promoted (eg I just learned of its existence on this thread).

Cheers
Borjan

[gonesail]

you can also test drive linux with a bootable thumb drive. i recommend linux mint18 .. my fave is the KDE version. this is really a great operating system now and still free .. as opposed to the nonsense that bill gates and microsoft is still selling

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Invictus69

I assume connectivity with sensors/other devices should work well.

This is one area where a raspberry pi/openplotter , though certainly sluggish compared with laptops, wins. Lots of pins easy to get at and configure for external sensors like thermometers, voltage sensors etc. Openplotter then makes it fairly simple to turn it all into signalk/nmea 0183 or 2k. Looks like there are USB / I2C adaptors out there for PC's but then you need some program to talk to thermometers and do something with the data.

Really nice having engine temperature masquerading as water temperature on opencpn dashboard.

More work to install though, need a case, power supply, you'll probably want a monitor as well. As it's on a boat it's all compromises

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by sy_gilana

(...)

I got really upset with windows

(...)

You are not alone.

Many people blah about Windows 7, 8, or 10 ... I personally can't see what improvements there were from Xp to 10. And that's basically 15 years of "development". All the old problems are still there (e.g. inability to hold on to an alternative input language), very few useful features have been added. With every new incarnation of same old thing icons and elements are renamed and moved about, which makes transitions a PITA.

I bet if you apply Windows 10 GUI over Windows XP system, MOST USERS WILL NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE.

Some annoying features have popped up (like many posters rightly say the way the updates work now).

It takes 10 as much time to load up as it does for XP.

I am very strongly convinced most of my newer hardware edge is taken up by Windows bloat. So Microsoft will stop support for older versions to stop us from using 100% viable older OSes on newer faster machines.

Microsoft is threading the water. Maybe time for new players to pop up.

b.

[sy_gilana]

@ Barnakiel, I think I agree with you more than disagree.

There is some geek humour in Linux, if you change your locale from US to UK the little Icon on the desktop changes from "Trash" to "Rubbish"

[Moosemiester]

Not touching this with a 10 foot pole but FYI if you have an iPad with no 3G and no gps buy a bad elf gps, it uses Bluetooth and presto instant cheap chart plotter AND gps with a big screen for driving. It's a real gps not triangulate off the cell towers crap...

[barnakiel]

I think Bad Elf is not required. You can use any BT tethered smartphone with gps to act as a BT gps source. NO? They are 50 to 100USD depending on what you get.

But simply do not buy a gps-less tablet for your nav! Unless you already have wifi or BT gps source onboard.

Avoid gear that makes you buy more gear. The beauty of tablets is all-in-one. Unless, off course, one opted for some funky IPad models.

b.

[Alita49DS]

Originally Posted by Moosemiester

Not touching this with a 10 foot pole but FYI if you have an iPad with no 3G and no gps buy a bad elf gps, it uses Bluetooth and presto instant cheap chart plotter AND gps with a big screen for driving. It's a real gps not triangulate off the cell towers crap...

What you have written is, sadly, wholly inaccurate. You have failed to understand the difference between cellular triangulation and what is called "Assisted GPS".

What a 3/4G iPad uses is Assisted GPS. If there is a cellular signal available that signal assists the GPS positional acquisition time. After that the "A" part becomes irrelevant. It works as a GPS. As such the iPad will also work way offshore where there is no cellular connection to give an accurate GPS position. I should know!

I would hope that your post would not lead anyone with a 3G iPad to waste their money by buying a separate BT GPS.

Conversely, if they do not have the 3G + GPS version they have only three choices:

1. WiFi/BT connect to a wireless enabled chart plotter. Both Garmin and Raymarine sell these. I am only familiar with the Garmin iteration. You get the same display as on the plotter and full control of all its functions. So, for example, if your AIS is interfaced with the plotter you see the data on the tablet. Also, for that matter, on a mobile phone.

2. Sell your iPad on such as eBay for the 3G/GPS variant. Better device part financed by not going for option 3. Older devices will not run ios 10 now so will not run 11 when it comes. Apple's nice little way of forcing you to buy new hardware.

3. Buy a BT enabled GPS. Not that cheap and another device to have to keep charged and to mislay. If anyone know how to output the GPS signal from a smartphone to either iOS or Windows I hope they will post the answer!

Your call.