Can a DIY Dyneema re-rig be cheaper than SS?

[unbusted67]

I am just in the preliminary stages of researching this but I am wondering if it is possible to do a DIY dyneema standing rigging setup cheaper than with SS?

I made the dumb mistake of buying a ketch and didn't realize how crummy the rig was. Now I am faced with re-doing the standing rigging. It seems like there are two schools with dyneema rigging on Youtube. There's guys who go the Colligo route with the custom fittings and pre stretched Dux, and then there's guys who are kind of winging it and seem to be having success, like this dude.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4J4...VSwjTSCSW_wu3e

The principles of rope standing rigging have been around for a loooong time and it seems like it would be pretty straightforward albeit labor intensive to make up some stays and dead eyes using SS thimbles.

Anyone gone this route? Anyone have any leads on affordable rope? Would it just be cheaper in the long run to go with wire rope and Sta Lok fittings?

[Singularity]

In the same spot last year I replaced all with SS, swaged upper fittings, DIY Sta-lok lower fittings.

Not philosophically apposed to Dyneema. SS simply came out a little $$ under Colligo's quote (but I did collect NOS Sta-loks) and SS maybe was more fool-proof to install. I could have sized Dyneema smaller (for strength only) and saved money but would have the stretch/creep to deal with.

Somewhere online there may still be the "Rigging Doc" who will do a consultation including calculations for synthetic for your boat for something like $150 (I don't recall exactly). Worth the money if you're going to DIY.

I would not wing it like some dude unless it was a small lake boat. If cost is an issue and quality galvanized wire can be found at a good price maybe it's an option?

[unbusted67]

Originally Posted by Singularity

In the same spot last year I replaced all with SS, swaged upper fittings, DIY Sta-lok lower fittings.

Not philosophically apposed to Dyneema. SS simply came out a little $$ under Colligo's quote (but I did collect NOS Sta-loks) and SS maybe was more fool-proof to install. I could have sized Dyneema smaller (for strength only) and saved money but would have the stretch/creep to deal with.

Somewhere online there may still be the "Rigging Doc" who will do a consultation including calculations for synthetic for your boat for something like $150 (I don't recall exactly). Worth the money if you're going to DIY.

I would not wing it like some dude unless it was a small lake boat. If cost is an issue and quality galvanized wire can be found at a good price maybe it's an option?

Sorry, what is NOS Sta lok?

[Benz]

As a DIY-er who did it, I can say that splicing is a worthwhile skill for a sailor, and it's not rocket science--anyone can learn to do it with a little effort. It's harder to set up an integrated electric nav setup that works than to splice a gang of rigging (IMO).
You can shop around for pre-stretched Dyneema options: there's not only DUX; there's NER's HTS (sp?); there's Marlow's M-rig; and if you're really poor, you can buy spool ends of polyester covered Vectran like I did from a rig shop that wanted it gone.
As for thimbles, while you can use regular closed thimbles aloft and with the pin on a turnbuckle, if you want to use lanyards, you really need proper deadeyes. Tightening up a lashing through a thimble is misery--the legs try and ride all over each other--you really need the separate holes. However, if you already have the turnbuckles to re-use, a few closed thimbles from Ronstan will come in pretty reasonable.
Finally, a word on over-sizing. The bigger the line, the more force it takes to get a good initial tension on it. Don't go so huge that you buckle your mast while trying to get the line tight enough that it won't go slack on the lee side.

[tekdiver]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

I am just in the preliminary stages of researching this but I am wondering if it is possible to do a DIY dyneema standing rigging setup cheaper than with SS?

I made the dumb mistake of buying a ketch and didn't realize how crummy the rig was. Now I am faced with re-doing the standing rigging. It seems like there are two schools with dyneema rigging on Youtube. There's guys who go the Colligo route with the custom fittings and pre stretched Dux, and then there's guys who are kind of winging it and seem to be having success, like this dude.

The principles of rope standing rigging have been around for a loooong time and it seems like it would be pretty straightforward albeit labor intensive to make up some stays and dead eyes using SS thimbles.

Anyone gone this route? Anyone have any leads on affordable rope? Would it just be cheaper in the long run to go with wire rope and Sta Lok fittings?

James is awesome and does great vids showing how to splice and but the rigging up. If your a person who will check your rigging everyday and keep it tight Dynema may be for you. Stainless is up and running and less worry. All about how you spend your time onboard

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

Sorry, what is NOS Sta lok?

My apologies...New Old Stock. Meaning I bought used from Ebay that had never been installed. I had my hardware list and simply checked in every few days...I think for the fittings I ended up paying about 70% of typical retail.

[Maka]

IMHO the reason there are professional riggers is that is is a complex and technical process. On all but the smallest of boats.


I do know when my rigging is out of tune and will make small adjustments on one or two.

But I always hire a professional to inspect my standing rigging regularly and tune it when needed.
A standing rigging failure can be deadly and catastrophic.

[billknny]

Originally Posted by Benz

Finally, a word on over-sizing. The bigger the line, the more force it takes to get a good initial tension on it. Don't go so huge that you buckle your mast while trying to get the line tight enough that it won't go slack on the lee side.

This shows a basic, and serious, misunderstanding of how to size and tune Dyneema rigging.

It should be sized NOT by matching the breaking strength to the wire it replaces, but by matching the amount of STRETCH in the existing wire rig at rigging loads.

That results in a rig with Dyneema sizes quite a bit LARGER than the wire it replaces, but still a lot lighter. Anything smaller will result in a much stretchier rig with less control over the mast bends, and that will cause performance and stability of the rig to suffer.

The rig is then tensioned to the same tension you would have tightened the wire to, i.e., 15% of the WIRE's breaking strength. Be sure that you can get to this tension if you are going to be using deadeyes.

That will give you a rig with the same stability and performance of wire at a fraction of the weight.

It's details like this you pay for when you have a real rigger (with Dyneema experience!) install your rig instead of following the advice of random internet strangers.

[wrwakefield]

Ben,

I have no issues with UHMWPE lines or standing rigging, but... if you are in a cooler climate [your profile shows Maine...] be aware that UHMWPE fibers elongate as they get colder, and then shrink back as they get warmer... This means lots of tightening in cold weather, and loostening again as it warms up.

I am also in cooler latitudes [56+°N] and this is reason enough for me to not consider Dyneema and the like for my ketch standing rigging. [I can go from 'warm' to 'cold' just by heading into a glacial fjord on a nice summer day... no time for retuning the rig...]

Others may be more into constant tuning than I am...

No thanks. A ketch is not a simple tuning project [for me anyway... d anI had Bryon Toss tune the boat when I bought it, and teach me in the process... its complicated...]

Perhaps one day a temperature stabilized line for replacing wire standing rigging will be made available- at which point I may reconsider...

In case this is useful for you.

Cheers! Bill

[Disailor]

Replace my 1/4" 1x19 SS forestay with 5/16 7x19 Galvanized & Stay-Loks. Almost 50% increase in working load at 1/3 the cost. Coiled it in a 5 gallon bucket & submerged in a 50/50 mix of Linseed oil/Turpentine for a week. Greased with Hi temp (500F drip) red grease (auto parts store) before installing roller furler extrusion. 5 years now on Penobscot Bay & no rust.

[Michael Pope]

7X 19 higher initial stretching and bedding down for first year of use Make sure you have enough Turnbuckle length ? !!'
!X19 end of first month probably as long as it is going to be.
Weight aloft very very important when going to weather slows you down a lot being a Grand Father Clock up side down pendulum. 7X19 skinny wires wear our and break
from Hank wear Bur if no hanks OK all obvious but we are non of us smart enough for what we attempt Good Thing Mike Pope

[captlloyd]

James does show you how easy Dyneema is to work with and splice. I also thought a good length of turnbuckle would solve the stretching issues. I think it is more about a persons wilingness to try than anything else. Some do, some don’t. Keep in mind that if you want long life of the Dyneema it’s best to sheath it from the sun.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by billknny

This shows a basic, and serious, misunderstanding of how to size and tune Dyneema rigging.

It should be sized NOT by matching the breaking strength to the wire it replaces, but by matching the amount of STRETCH in the existing wire rig at rigging loads.

That results in a rig with Dyneema sizes quite a bit LARGER than the wire it replaces, but still a lot lighter. Anything smaller will result in a much stretchier rig with less control over the mast bends, and that will cause performance and stability of the rig to suffer.

The rig is then tensioned to the same tension you would have tightened the wire to, i.e., 15% of the WIRE's breaking strength. Be sure that you can get to this tension if you are going to be using deadeyes.

That will give you a rig with the same stability and performance of wire at a fraction of the weight.

It's details like this you pay for when you have a real rigger (with Dyneema experience!) install your rig instead of following the advice of random internet strangers.

Bill, you misunderstand. I didn't say you should match wire BL for BL. Sure you size dyneema bigger. But I'm cautioning against too much bigger, which might happen if a really good deal on spool ends happens along. I splice and pre-stretch Dyneema all day, and a load that will pull 1/8" bowsting taut will not even set in a splice in 3/8" pre-stretch.
I can't deny that I'm a random internet stranger--so are you for that matter--but I must insist that I'm at least a real rigger, unless being a professional who makes his living rigging doesn't count as real in your world.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by wrwakefield

Ben,

I have no issues with UHMWPE lines or standing rigging, but... if you are in a cooler climate [your profile shows Maine...] be aware that UHMWPE fibers elongate as they get colder, and then shrink back as they get warmer... This means lots of tightening in cold weather, and loostening again as it warms up.

I am also in cooler latitudes [56+°N] and this is reason enough for me to not consider Dyneema and the like for my ketch standing rigging. [I can go from 'warm' to 'cold' just by heading into a glacial fjord on a nice summer day... no time for retuning the rig...]

Others may be more into constant tuning than I am...

No thanks. A ketch is not a simple tuning project [for me anyway... d anI had Bryon Toss tune the boat when I bought it, and teach me in the process... its complicated...]

Perhaps one day a temperature stabilized line for replacing wire standing rigging will be made available- at which point I may reconsider...

In case this is useful for you.

Cheers! Bill

Hi Bill,
My profile seems to show Rhode Island, but we get temperature fluctuations here too. I can't speak to UHMPE temperature fluctuations, since I used Vectran on my rig, and I can detect no movement from that. FWIW, I think Vectran, Kevlar, and PBO are far more stable than Dyneema--it's just much harder to protect them from the sun. That's why kevlar shrouds usually have a heavy PVC coating cast around them.
There already are temp-stable lines to replace SS wire, they're just prohibitively expensive.

[alansmith]

My trimaran has an almost all dynemma on it. On my latest trip to Mexico to work on the boat in San Carlos I replaced my SS forestay and SS backstay with synthetic.

Since my boat is trailerable it is a feature I desire to have rig easily dismantled and reassembled. I literally can take the rig from horizontal and tensioned within an hour. I can drop the mast in 20 minutes. I have a synthetic forestay with an L- line furler. I got rid of the ancient Profurl with all the aluminum extrusions. It was PITA to derig and always stressful that you would kink it.

I worked with John Franta at Colligo Marine. Bought a synthetic forestay, L line furler, dynema backstays that hang on cheeky tangs, and lazy jacks for all about 3K. Hard to beat those prices.

There is also another guy in San Diego, that James on Sailing Zingaro (YouTube) speaks of. Think his company is called Krakken.

My new headsail built by Elliott Pattison sails in Newport Beach California uses soft hanks to attach the sail around the synthetic stay. I can, therefore use my headsail as a furler or as a lift/ drop/ bag it. The quality is beyond excellent.

Dynemma is used by all the top world racing crews. It doesn’t corrode. It doesn’t developed meat hooks, it is stronger than steel, it can be prestretched. It is much easier to inspect for wear and tear than stainless. It is lighter weight aloft. Watch some videos and start to increase your knowledge base. If circumnavigator racers are using it on 5 million dollar boats in the roaring 40’s ... you can bet your a$$ that some serious stresses occur on the rigs and you will never approach those limits with what we do as sailors. .