Hunter 356 Bluewater Capable?

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

I feel some tensión here.

Some Humor.

You know you’re in a rolly anchorage when…

• your tablet auto rotates as you are sitting still on the settee
• setting a stern anchor in the middle of the night sounds like a good idea
• you run through the options for dinner in your head and then ask, “Want some crackers and cheese?”
• you set up your fore/aft bunk so you can sleep athwartships, even though it forces you into the fetal position
• you make a drinking game out of watching the increased angle heights on the inclinometer
• you tear a locker apart to figure out what is rattling around
• you gain new appreciation for the genius of Ensign Pulver and his rolling marble
• you clamber, disoriented, up on deck thinking it’s your turn to go on watch
• you seriously consider hauling up the anchor and going elsewhere at 2am
• the afternoon’s ‘entertainment’ consists of watching all the charter boats break anchor and drift by
• for once, the land looks more fun
• you have to sit to shower
• you have to roll an extra blanket to stay in v-berth
• the dog thinks he is on a slip and slide
• you feel seasick
• you have to stow like you’re going offshore
• you have to take a dose of sturgeron
• your eyes look like fried eggs after a sleepless night
• your husband leaves to go diving and comes back with a hotel reservation
• you decide to hike 10+ miles in the heat, in the desert, to a HOT springs
• you loop your arm through a handhold so you can relax a little
• you stack up all the spare sails in your aft centerline bunk so you can wedge yourself in
• your unbreakable french press shatters as it slides off the counter and crashes into the sink
• you start remembering what things around the salon don’t have non-slip under them
• you keep wondering “are we there yet?”
• you can’t find your kitchen knife, then see it sticking point down in the floor like a javelin
• the stainless steel coffee pot does a swan dive off the stove into the stairs and gets a huge dent
• a full water bottle does a somersault and spills all over your berth in the middle of the night

Like!!!!!

BTW - I'm not tense at all.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

I'm not shooting anyone. But I certainly don't see in that quote, sic'd though it might be, where anyone is saying, or even implying, that one "can always find a calm anchorage" as you said.

Which of the above two quotes is actually ludicrous?

Guess you might be able to read it differently if you really try.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Guess you might be able to read it differently if you really try.

Sure. But you really, really have to try...for whatever reason. Isn't it easier to just accurately quote someone?

If Neil's quote is the one you're picking on, remember, he also said this:

Originally Posted by neilpride

personally i believe that if you want to get rest and sleep well you need to choose to a good spot, if charts and pilot guides show a open anchorage exposed to currents and wind shifts and swells, well choose another one, i found it really masochist that if you want rest and instead you spend the whole freaking night playing with bridles and etc.. rolling and rolling what you get is exactly the contrary, you dont get rest, so i prefer set sail and sleep in the way, or move to another destination or anchorage, unless is a day night stop this rolly thing is not a problem, i see sometimes cruisers spend months in a rolly anchorage , lol... that hurt!!!

I understand his point perfectly - and he's still not saying what you said he's saying.

So, I think we've put this one to bed...unless you have an actual quote that shows differently.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Sure. But you really, really have to try...for whatever reason. Isn't it easier to just accurately quote someone?

If Neil's quote is the one you're picking on, remember, he also said this:



I understand his point perfectly - and he's still not saying what you said he's saying.

So, I think we've put this one to bed...unless you have an actual quote that shows differently.

The statement stands as he wrote it. It couldnt be more clear.
I give up.

[FightinGravity]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Let's be serious for a minute and try to help the OP.

As you may have gathered from the different comments, getting to San Francisco from the U.S. East Coast is an extremely challenging voyage.

If the main purpose is to get the boat to San Francisco, really, shipping it will be cheaper and vastly easier.

If on the other hand you want a blue water adventure, a trans-Atlantic to Europe will be much easier, and cruising in Europe is vastly more interesting (like, 10,000 times more interesting) than in Northern California.

A high latitude W to E Transat is a pretty big challenge, but it can be done. And despite what some on here will tell you, can surely be done on that boat.

The main challenge will be weather, as you will pass through an area with regular gales. Extremely good weather planning and routing will be essential.

I don't think preparation of the boat need be ridiculously expensive. You shouldn't underestimate it, but you shouldn't be discouraged before you even start thinking about it.

The main things are these:

1. Backup steering. A wind vane with separate rudder is great for this. Besides giving you a backup rudder, it gives you a power-free way to steer. And concerning the primary steering -- drop the rudder out and have an expert go through thee entire steering system with a fine tooth comb.

2. Double, triple check the rig and all rigging. Replace standing rigging if in any doubt. Lots of spares for all kinds of rigging.

3. Sails. Sails should be in good condition -- you will do a fair amount of sailing upwind, and a few thousands mile passage puts a lot of wear and tear on sails. Backups are a good idea.

4. Drag device for storm situation. A Jordan Series Drogue is ideal. You must be sure you have strong enough attachment points for it. With this and proper technique, you should be ok in anything up to a F9 or F10 even in that little boat, and the risk of getting into anything worse than that should be vanishingly small with decent weather planning.

5. Comms. SSB or sat phone, preferably both. For this passage, you MUST have a way of getting weather every day.

6. EPIRB, liferaft, other safety gear.

7. Fuel, water, food. You will have to work out yourself how much you need and how you will store it. A water maker is a fabulous luxury, but not essential.

8. Electrical power. A surprising number of ocean crossings are spoiled because of failure of electrical power supply. You should have two or three ways of keeping your batteries charged. A complete spare alternator is a really good idea, too.

9. Machinery. Make sure the main engine and all the machinery is in perfect condition. I am assuming that your main engine is your only mechanical way to generate electrical power, so it is mission critical, even if you know you won't do any significant motoring on passage (because you can't possibly carry enough fuel to motor any significant mileage).

10. Watertight integrity. Absence of leaks above or below the waterline, good through hulls and hoses. Redundant bilge pumps including a hand operated crash pump. Sturdy wash boards which can be securely locked in place.

11. Spares and tools.

12. Skills and knowledge. Can't give you advice here, because I don't know what your do or don't know. But you will need a certain amount of skill and knowledge in a number of discplines, for this to be safe and fun. None of it is rocket science, just requires some preparation.


There are other details, and I'm sure others will chime in, but that's more or less the basics. If your boat is in good condition to start with, it might not cost more than $30k or so.

The other good thing about doing a Transat to Europe, is that the way back is an easy tradewinds sail to the Caribbean via the Canaries. After having started out with the hard passage, everything else will seem easy.

Concerning the choice of boat: Obviously a light and small boat like yours is not ideal, and people will try to discourage you. A larger and/or stronger boat will obviously be more comfortable, safer, etc. But these days, with good weather information available, few sailors crossing oceans, other than Southern Ocean, North Atlantic out of season, etc., ever see anything above a F8. A F8 is not dangerous in your boat if you have appropriate skills and knowledge and a decent drag device.

Thank you all for replying to my post. I suppose I didn't think it would receive the amount of attention that it did..... I should have known with a Hunter in the conversation....

The quoted post is fairly close to the answer I was looking for - Thank You. You hit it on the head at the end of your post regarding the option of a lighter boat; it comes down to modern weather forecasting.

I have spent a lot of time before and after buying the Hunter on this board reading. I have also spent time in weather with the Hunter scratching my head wondering when it was going to break apart or the Seldon rig, with no backstay, would come crashing down on my head. Not to say those things won't happen in the future but the boat has been great fun in 20+ knot conditions.

The first concern for me has been and always will be safety. When I was teaching skiff sailing, day 1 was safety. When approaching a trip like this I need to address the safety concerns first too. So yes, I will have an EPIRB, life raft, watermaker, solar, Comms with multiple backups and redundant systems.

The info on sailing the West coast was very useful - especially good weather windows. The idea of shipping all the way is funny - especially because the point was to go on a sail. That said, Panama to San Francisco could be a shipping option. Any thoughts on selling in Panama? From many of the posts here people don't seem to have the best luck getting near market value there.

The biggest question for me seems to be the one unanswered. Are there any recommended modifications to the Hunter 356 that someone with knowledge of the boat would recommend. For example, on a few Hunter 44 Legends a stability bar was added near the mast post to reduce torsion. Other hunter I have seen added foam core insulation to the bow in case of a strike.

Finally, I am up for any trades with someone who has a decent 40+ foot Cabo Rico, Formosa, Gulfstar, Tayana etc. with over 6'4" of headroom and a queen berth.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Tx J

Polux,
There are general sailing guides and statistics, and then there are the actual recent statistics.
Like this 2014 "Eastern North Pacific Tropical Weather Summary", which I will copy below (the NWS always uses 'Caps', as it dates back to the days of all-caps Teletypes/TWX).

The link to the source US NOAA National Hurricane Center page is: Monthly Eastern North Pacific Tropical Weather Summary .
From that, you may go on to examine much more detailed reports on the EP 2014 season (and all other recorded years).
Remember, these are just the "Named" storms, there are many others of lesser intensity that form there. Four or five of the named ones reached Cat V status (really bad asses).

The NHC analysts point out that it was a busy year versus the historical norm, but with our increasing (non-existent to some... ) "climate change/global warming", how willing should one be to roll the dice?
I mean: "Do you feel lucky today?" (to paraphrase a now sadly aging former actor/director/producer by the name of Clint).

Then, after pondering those kind of odds, how should the OP (who reads like an inexperienced sailor) proceed into a very long, multi-month voyage in a "marginal" vessel (according to some)?
Also look at the track map below and consider that all this stuff starts near right about the Panama Canal (and you have to factor in the satellite views which show the EP storm nursery hatching all those little babies in a somewhat wider area). Quite a gauntlet to run.

Monthly Eastern North Pacific Tropical Weather Summary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"ABPZ30 KNHC 011444
TWSEP

MONTHLY TROPICAL WEATHER SUMMARY
NWS NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL
800 AM PST MON DEC 1 2014

FOR THE EASTERN NORTH PACIFIC...EAST OF 140 DEGREES WEST LONGITUDE..

NO TROPICAL CYCLONES FORMED IN THE BASIN IN NOVEMBER. HOWEVER...
VANCE...WHICH FORMED IN LATE OCTOBER...REACHED HURRICANE INTENSITY
EARLY IN NOVEMBER. THIS IS UNUSUAL...SINCE A HURRICANE FORMS IN
NOVEMBER IN THE BASIN ONLY ABOUT ONCE EVERY SEVEN OR EIGHT YEARS
BASED ON A 30-YEAR (1981-2010) CLIMATOLOGY.

OVERALL...THE 2014 SEASON WAS EXTREMELY ACTIVE IN THE BASIN. TWENTY
NAMED STORMS FORMED...OF WHICH 14 BECAME HURRICANES...AND 8 OF THOSE
REACHED MAJOR HURRICANE STRENGTH IN THE BASIN. IN ADDITION...ONE
UNNAMED DEPRESSION FORMED DURING THE SEASON. BASED ON A 1981-2010
CLIMATOLOGY...THE SEASONAL ACTIVITY AVERAGES FOR THE BASIN ARE 15
NAMED STORMS...8 HURRICANES...AND 3 OR 4 MAJOR HURRICANES. FOR
2014...THE NUMBER OF NAMED STORMS...HURRICANES...AND MAJOR
HURRICANES WAS WELL ABOVE AVERAGE.

IN TERMS OF ACCUMULATED CYCLONE ENERGY...ACE...WHICH MEASURES THE
COMBINED STRENGTH AND DURATION OF TROPICAL STORMS AND HURRICANES...
ACTIVITY IN THE BASIN IN 2014 WAS 43 PERCENT ABOVE THE 1981-2010
AVERAGE VALUE. THIS IS THE SEVENTH HIGHEST ACE VALUE IN THE BASIN
SINCE RELIABLE RECORDS BEGAN IN 1971.

REPORTS ON INDIVIDUAL CYCLONES...WHEN COMPLETED...ARE AT THE WEB
SITE OF THE NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER...USE LOWER-CASE LETTERS...
WWW.HURRICANES.GOV/2014EPAC.SHTML

SUMMARY TABLE

NAME DATES MAX WIND (MPH)
---------------------------------------------------
MH AMANDA* 22-29 MAY 155
TS BORIS* 2-4 JUN 45
MH CRISTINA* 9-15 JUN 150
TS DOUGLAS 28 JUN-5 JUL 45
TS ELIDA* 30 JUN-2 JUL 50
TS FAUSTO* 7-9 JUL 45
MH GENEVIEVE 25 JUL-13 AUG** 160
H HERNAN* 26-29 JUL 75
MH ISELLE 31 JUL-9 AUG** 140
MH JULIO 4-15 AUG** 120
H KARINA* 13-26 AUG 85
H LOWELL 18-24 AUG 75
MH MARIE 22-29 AUG 160
MH NORBERT* 2-8 SEP 125
MH ODILE 10-17 SEP 135
TD SIXTEEN-E 11-15 SEP 35
H POLO 16-22 SEP 75
H RACHEL 24-30 SEP 85
MH SIMON 1-7 OCT 130
TS TRUDY 17-18 OCT 60
TS VANCE 30 OCT-5 NOV 110
---------------------------------------------------

* DENOTES A STORM FOR WHICH THE POST-STORM ANALYSIS IS COMPLETE.
** DATES INCLUDE THE TROPICAL CYCLONE STAGE IN THE CENTRAL
AND/OR WESTERN PACIFIC BASINS.

$$
HURRICANE SPECIALIST UNIT"

Preliminary Eastern North Pacific Tropical Cyclone Tracks

What a long confused and confounding post!

You seem to misunderstood the information that I posted: It does not comes from sailing guides but from compiled meteorological statistics.

Most of your's post seems to be about hurricanes. The only thing I said regarding that was:

Originally Posted by Polux

...
For what I understand Hurricanes pass South of the Mexican Baja area so if the Op makes arrives there at the end of May, it will be the best choice.

It would be very easy for you to show (if that was the case) what were the Hurricanes that passed North of the Mexican Baja on the last years on June or July but surprisingly you don't show any and post a lot of data about Hurricanes but surprisingly (or maybe not) starting only at late May, MH AMANDA 22-29 and that one well south of the Mexican Baja.
Only one crossed the California Mexican Baja, the Odile, in September, also Norbert, in September too passed close.

I was saying that it seemed to me that he should arrive at the Mexican Baja near the end of May and certainly he would not take more than a month to it.

Anyway I was given advise about the average winds one may expect on those months on those regions, namely the Baja California. The fact that in June and July on the Baja California coast the wind averages F3 is a clear indication that Hurricanes are not frequent on that area on those months.

Originally Posted by Polux

...
On a small boat It will require going easy and with plenty time, waiting on the last part of the voyage, on anchorages or harbors, for favorable winds or less strong winds to be able to sail against or motor. The fact that the Hunter will be able to sail with little wind is a plus since the wind on the Central America it will be mostly weak as well as the days with favorable win on the last part of the voyage.

You highlighted also on my post this part. When I am referring to the the last part of the voyage I am talking about the sailing North the Baja till S Francisco, out of the Hurricane zone and where the stronger upwind winds will be found. The winds on the Mexican/California Baja are not as bad and with an average F3 and some days with favorable wind he can surely make it in less than a month.

Regarding you saying that a 35ft modern boat is limit to do coastal cruising, I do not understand why you say that. Smaller boats like the ones you own would have a smaller safety margin, even if with a good sailor with a Newport 28 could do what the OP intends to do even if not on one year. I don't think that with the 35ft Hunter he can make it on an year too but I never said otherwise. The best option, as somebody said, seems to me, to leave the boat in Panama and do the rest of the voyage next year.

In what concerns the OP gaining experience before attempting this (if he has not enough), I had already said that on another post.

[sailorboy1]

Never would have Thought I would see a thread when a whole boat brands 40 years of business was trashed over anchoring


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

I feel some tensión here.

Some Humor.

You know you’re in a rolly anchorage when…

• your tablet auto rotates as you are sitting still on the settee
• setting a stern anchor in the middle of the night sounds like a good idea
• you run through the options for dinner in your head and then ask, “Want some crackers and cheese?”
• you set up your fore/aft bunk so you can sleep athwartships, even though it forces you into the fetal position
• you make a drinking game out of watching the increased angle heights on the inclinometer
• you tear a locker apart to figure out what is rattling around
• you gain new appreciation for the genius of Ensign Pulver and his rolling marble
• you clamber, disoriented, up on deck thinking it’s your turn to go on watch
• you seriously consider hauling up the anchor and going elsewhere at 2am
• the afternoon’s ‘entertainment’ consists of watching all the charter boats break anchor and drift by
• for once, the land looks more fun
• you have to sit to shower
• you have to roll an extra blanket to stay in v-berth
• the dog thinks he is on a slip and slide
• you feel seasick
• you have to stow like you’re going offshore
• you have to take a dose of sturgeron
• your eyes look like fried eggs after a sleepless night
• your husband leaves to go diving and comes back with a hotel reservation
• you decide to hike 10+ miles in the heat, in the desert, to a HOT springs
• you loop your arm through a handhold so you can relax a little
• you stack up all the spare sails in your aft centerline bunk so you can wedge yourself in
• your unbreakable french press shatters as it slides off the counter and crashes into the sink
• you start remembering what things around the salon don’t have non-slip under them
• you keep wondering “are we there yet?”
• you can’t find your kitchen knife, then see it sticking point down in the floor like a javelin
• the stainless steel coffee pot does a swan dive off the stove into the stairs and gets a huge dent
• a full water bottle does a somersault and spills all over your berth in the middle of the night

Worse than all that, when the dinner wine bottle escapes from the table while one tries to open it and spill its precious contents on the bilge.

It happened to me this year and you can believe me: I was pissed!!!

Regarding all those stories about rolling anchorages on settled weather, my experience is that they are linked with tides or currents and normally will not last all night or day. If they last, as it had already happened with me, and it is really bad to the point of beeing hard to sleep, I don't understand why one remains on the anchorage when he can pass the nigh sailing slowly in more comfortable conditions. The crew can take turns on a sleepy watch on the cockpit and even if they are only two, at least one is sleeping comfortably at a time.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Never would have Thought I would see a thread when a whole boat brands 40 years of business was trashed over anchoring


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Welcome to the "Blue Water Anchoring" debate. Heh-heh.

Hi, first-time poster here! I'm looking for the right boat to anchor in big swells and surf. Something under $5K would be great. Any advice?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by neilpride

If is not posible to found a alternative anchorage or pull up the hook and move to other destination or place then sorry i think the skills of the skipper are really poor, if you do well your maths before to start a passage this things are not a problem unless
you want to suffer by purpose.


Cheers.

Neil, with all respect, this means that one must avoid some pretty desirable cruising grounds. For instance, there are very few anchorages in the whole of the Marquesas that are not rolly places. We were often uncomfortable at anchor there, but liked the whole experience so well that we made the long trip twice for it is a remarkable place.

There are just a lot of areas in the world where there are no really good anchorages, so if you wish to see them, some rolling is inevitable. I don't think this reflects upon my "skipper skills" all that badly!

And none of this reflects upon the adequacy of the subject Hunter 356...

Jim

[BobH260]

Originally Posted by FightinGravity

Thank you all for replying to my post. I suppose I didn't think it would receive the amount of attention that it did..... I should have known with a Hunter in the conversation....

The quoted post is fairly close to the answer I was looking for - Thank You. You hit it on the head at the end of your post regarding the option of a lighter boat; it comes down to modern weather forecasting.

I have spent a lot of time before and after buying the Hunter on this board reading. I have also spent time in weather with the Hunter scratching my head wondering when it was going to break apart or the Seldon rig, with no backstay, would come crashing down on my head. Not to say those things won't happen in the future but the boat has been great fun in 20+ knot conditions.

The first concern for me has been and always will be safety. When I was teaching skiff sailing, day 1 was safety. When approaching a trip like this I need to address the safety concerns first too. So yes, I will have an EPIRB, life raft, watermaker, solar, Comms with multiple backups and redundant systems.

The info on sailing the West coast was very useful - especially good weather windows. The idea of shipping all the way is funny - especially because the point was to go on a sail. That said, Panama to San Francisco could be a shipping option. Any thoughts on selling in Panama? From many of the posts here people don't seem to have the best luck getting near market value there.

The biggest question for me seems to be the one unanswered. Are there any recommended modifications to the Hunter 356 that someone with knowledge of the boat would recommend. For example, on a few Hunter 44 Legends a stability bar was added near the mast post to reduce torsion. Other hunter I have seen added foam core insulation to the bow in case of a strike.

Finally, I am up for any trades with someone who has a decent 40+ foot Cabo Rico, Formosa, Gulfstar, Tayana etc. with over 6'4" of headroom and a queen berth.

I don't think you need to beef up the hull on the 356. It is vacuum bagged Kevlar and e-glass from the keel to the stem it is 5/8" thick. They have a sealed chamber in the bow under fresh water tank I was told. You can contact Steve Pettengill through the St Agustine Hunter dealer, he did all the testing on the 356 model and knows it intimately.

Here he is testing the keel joints, Hunter Strength Testing - YouTube

Bob

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by BobH260

I don't think you need to beef up the hull on the 356. It is vacuum bagged Kevlar and e-glass from the keel to the stem it is 5/8" thick. They have a sealed chamber in the bow under fresh water tank I was told. You can contact Steve Pettengill through the St Agustine Hunter dealer, he did all the testing on the 356 model and knows it intimately.

Here he is testing the keel joints, Hunter Strength Testing - YouTube

Bob

THAT'S the video I was looking for!

Hunter Strength Testing - YouTube

Of course, I'm sure someone will come a long and claim that it sunk after the filming.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Neil, with all respect, this means that one must avoid some pretty desirable cruising grounds. For instance, there are very few anchorages in the whole of the Marquesas that are not rolly places. We were often uncomfortable at anchor there, but liked the whole experience so well that we made the long trip twice for it is a remarkable place.

There are just a lot of areas in the world where there are no really good anchorages, so if you wish to see them, some rolling is inevitable. I don't think this reflects upon my "skipper skills" all that badly!

And none of this reflects upon the adequacy of the subject Hunter 356...

Jim

I can stand to in a uncomfortable anchorage Jim if the view and the experience is worth, now i cant stand in a really rolly anchorage no matter if ashore is waiting for me a naked mermaid,, what i try to say is, geting caught in a lee shore with no other options is lack of prevention , big swells, squalls, storms etc.. lets define a confy anchorage in another topic because i feel the definition for some is quite wide,, like Keno explain , rail to rail with cushions flying around is something im not going to eat , even if the queen of Rarotonga is inviting me to party!!!!
Like i say, each in their own.. If someone want endless nights in a rolly anchorage i can respect that, but to claim the boat is a piece of junk because it roll a lot, cmon....

[carstenb]

The Hunter was sailed up on sand. Here's a Dehler 31 being truly tested. And let's be honest guys - these boat manufacturers are not blithering idiots, they lokk at how all the rest of them put their keels/rudders etc on.

There are no secrets in the boat bizz.

the video is in german but never mind that. The Dehler held up well - I doubt if any older, long keel boat would have done better.

enjoy

By the way Neil - thanks for the humor - you know the boat is heeling when you've got hold of a handhold over your head and your feet leave the floor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIglL5vks4g

[weavis]

Originally Posted by neilpride

I can stand to in a uncomfortable anchorage Jim if the view and the experience is worth, now i cant stand in a really rolly anchorage no matter if ashore is waiting for me a naked mermaid,,

err........ would you mind telling me where you anchored for the possibility of a naked Mermaid?