Lee shore and no steerage

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Note that uncontrollable urge did try to anchor, but on an exposed lee shore it was too rough, and too much rock and kelp on the bottom, for their anchors(s) to hold. A cruising boat would probably have better anchors, but one should realize that securely anchoring on an exposed lee shore can be difficult.

I was always puzzled why Uncontrollable could not sail at some useful upwind angle even with the rudder gone. I never heard a good explanation.

This happened to me once on another boat. Luckily not near a lee shore, but at night in open water in 15 knots of true wind, while sailing close hauled with a #2 Jib on starboard tack among a fleet of other yachts also all on starboard tack.

Suddenly, "I've lost steering, I have no steering" came the call from the helmsman as the boat suddenly rounded up. before anything could be done we were past head to wind and falling off on port tack.

I called for the jib to be tacked over and by sheeting the jib or main as needed we regained a semblance of control.

Boats around us started yelling, "Starboard, starboard!" with increasing intensity. Our helmsman responded, "No Steering, no steering" which I doubt registered with the other boats at all. All we could see was a few dozen red running lights coming fast on collision courses.

I said, "Let's tack back, let the jib fly"

The boat rounded up and the once we made stays we tacked the jib over and sheeted in on starboard. Now the crew had the hang of steering I ducked down below with a couple of guys and some flashlights to see about the steering. Just a broken cable and there was enough slack to re-secure it and steering was restored. Two hours later we rounded Merry Island and set kites for home, the incident forgotten.

But the lesson was learned: You can steer with the sails if going upwind but I learned on another occasion you need some way on; you can't do it from a standing start. I learned that while trying to sail out of my berth on Wings. With the boat side tied and head to wind I raised the main and shoved off into the wind. The boat just stopped, head to wind, in the middle of the fairway, with the main flogging, and we started to drift backwards. I sculled frantically (a tactic unavailable to someone without steering), got the boat on a tack, but by now we were drifting leeward towards my neighbors and too slow to get any grip with the keel. Somehow we got out of there without hitting anybody and I learned another lesson, boats don't do good at all without some way on, and a jib is better than the main.

You can however sail off an anchor with just a mainsail if you have some room to leeward. Here is the technique:

Raise the main before weighing. Once the anchor is up and the boat starts drifting backwards push the main boom out to one side or the other, as if running downwind but backing the main. The boat will turn towards the side where the main is being held and when you are beam to the wind let the main lose and sheet in to gain headway. Without any steering you will need the jib too as soon as you are going forward. If you have no sea room it's better to start with a jib, it will turn you off the breeze quicker and get you going forward.

With good helm control you can sail backwards quite nicely by backing the main, first on one side then the other until your rudder can control the boat.

[Mattdewizard]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

If is a multihull (cat) it will have two engines and no need for steering. It also has two rudders and if one breaks it will still be able to sail on one. Why would anyone sail a monohull ---- sorry just couldn't resist this one especially after the capsize exclusion.

This is a monohull scenario. No steerage mean no rudders. Assume they have broken off

[thinwater]

Easy. Rig an anchor and fender as a drogue, rig a bridle to the secondary winches, and motor where every you want. 20 knots is not strong. More wind and you will need small sails to assist.



a. I've tested this.
b. I've had it happen (hit a submerged log and jammed rudder).


Anchoring can also be a good strategy. Depends on waves and depth.


---


This is something you need to practice. It is very different if the rudder is jammed straight, to one side, or gone. All are manageable, but the adjustments are very different. Steering by sails alone with rudder gone is generally far too unstable; some rudder or drogue is needed.

[Mattdewizard]

Originally Posted by wingssail

This happened to me once on another boat. Luckily not near a lee shore, but at night in open water in 15 knots of true wind, while sailing close hauled with a #2 Jib on starboard tack among a fleet of other yachts also all on starboard tack.

Suddenly, "I've lost steering, I have no steering" came the call from the helmsman as the boat suddenly rounded up. before anything could be done we were past head to wind and falling off on port tack.

I called for the jib to be tacked over and by sheeting the jib or main as needed we regained a semblance of control.

Boats around us started yelling, "Starboard, starboard!" with increasing intensity. Our helmsman responded, "No Steering, no steering" which I doubt registered with the other boats at all. All we could see was a few dozen red running lights coming fast on collision courses.

I said, "Let's tack back, let the jib fly"

The boat rounded up and the once we made stays we tacked the jib over and sheeted in on starboard. Now the crew had the hang of steering I ducked down below with a couple of guys and some flashlights to see about the steering. Just a broken cable and there was enough slack to re-secure it and steering was restored. Two hours later we rounded Merry Island and set kites for home, the incident forgotten.

But the lesson was learned: You can steer with the sails if going upwind but I learned on another occasion you need some way on; you can't do it from a standing start. I learned that while trying to sail out of my berth on Wings. With the boat side tied and head to wind I raised the main and shoved off into the wind. The boat just stopped, head to wind, in the middle of the fairway, with the main flogging, and we started to drift backwards. I sculled frantically (a tactic unavailable to someone without steering), got the boat on a tack, but by now we were drifting leeward towards my neighbors and too slow to get any grip with the keel. Somehow we got out of there without hitting anybody and I learned another lesson, boats don't do good at all without some way on, and a jib is better than the main.

You can however sail off an anchor with just a mainsail if you have some room to leeward. Here is the technique:

Raise the main before weighing. Once the anchor is up and the boat starts drifting backwards push the main boom out to one side or the other, as if running downwind but backing the main. The boat will turn towards the side where the main is being held and when you are beam to the wind let the main lose and sheet in to gain headway. Without any steering you will need the jib too as soon as you are going forward. If you have no sea room it's better to start with a jib, it will turn you off the breeze quicker and get you going forward.

With good helm control you can sail backwards quite nicely by backing the main, first on one side then the other until your rudder can control the boat.

Very informative. Thank you.

[thinwater]

Before you say going to windward is easy by sail adjustment alone, try it with the rudder hard to one side. Fairly common if you hit something or are thrown backwards.

[Don C L]

Yep, you can sail without a rudder. The Frers 65 I crewed on lost its rudder and we pulled out various jibs (they are heavy on a boat with a 90 foot mast!) We got her sailing pretty well on two tacks, but both tacks took us to unfriendly waters. So we ended up getting a tow from a RFA freighter.
But on a lee shore, yes, of course have the anchor ready to go. However, when one says "lee shore" around here the ones that concern me are places where if you're in water shallow enough for the anchor you might either be on rocks or in breakers. In my own boat, the VMG won't be too good at first but sheeting the jib in tighter and letting the main out will get me a fairly good close reach. Higher than that and I'm not really going anywhere. Tighten up the jib (and let out the main) you fall off, tighten up the main (ease the jib) and you come up. Not a bad thing to practice once in a while. In my own boat I am not sure I can get enough speed up for the main to drive me around a tack. I haven't tried in a while, if the sea is really calm then maybe. Now if you have a boat that is really sensitive and well-balanced, (and small) in theory you can steer by walking fore and aft.

[Mattdewizard]

Originally Posted by thomm225

The boat turns into the wind because of the main sail. The more it's sheeted the more the boat will turn into the wind.

Just the opposite with the jib. Main out jib in boat falls off the wind. Use the two to steer the boat.

This is how we hold our boats still on the starting line in racing when not moving enough for rudder control

You should be able to sail out using both main and jib if the rudder is stuck amid ships or swinging freely.

I broke my tiller off once and steered this way in 18 knots for a few miles then used the outboard and it's tiller after I got closer to land and the waves were smaller

Very simply stated. Thank you.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by wingssail

But the lesson was learned: You can steer with the sails if going upwind but I learned on another occasion you need some way on; you can't do it from a standing start. I learned that while trying to sail out of my berth on Wings. With the boat side tied and head to wind I raised the main and shoved off into the wind. The boat just stopped, head to wind, in the middle of the fairway, with the main flogging, and we started to drift backwards. I sculled frantically (a tactic unavailable to someone without steering), got the boat on a tack, but by now we were drifting leeward towards my neighbors and too slow to get any grip with the keel. Somehow we got out of there without hitting anybody and I learned another lesson, boats don't do good at all without some way on, and a jib is better than the main.

Fortunately in this sudden steering failure scenario, nothing has said the engine doesn't work. So you could always fire it up and use it to get enough way on to gain control with the sails (or use the sails to build severe weather helm to allow motoring into the wind if that would get you out of danger sooner so you could work on the problem).

[Mattdewizard]

I suppose if the rudder is jammed to one side then after pointing the boat into the wind one could heave to but with more forward momentum than would normally be done. Am I wrong?

[Don C L]

If you are hove-to on a lee shore, you are headed for the lee shore.

[Cwens]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Anchors aweigh!

That’s the only solution. Then you can just fix stuff at your leisure.

Random archaic nautical trivia: "Anchors aweigh" is not a command, it is a report, and it refers to hoisting an anchor, not setting it. The bridge commands "Weigh anchor" and the foredeck begins taking up chain. once the anchor is clear of the bottom, the foredeck reports "Anchor's aweigh"


Also the Navy fight song.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchors_Aweigh

[deblen]

Assuming you have a working engine:


Back & fill to get the bow pointed offshore.


If rudder is jammed hardover,repeat back & fill,til you are safely offshore.Note:rudder has little effect unless you are moving ahead @ 2kts.


If rudder is near amidships,or missing,keep steaming til safe offshore.


Drop anchor and/or use sails when safely offshore.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by ChrisOwens

Random archaic nautical trivia: "Anchors aweigh" is not a command, it is a report, and it refers to hoisting an anchor, not setting it. The bridge commands "Weigh anchor" and the foredeck begins taking up chain. once the anchor is clear of the bottom, the foredeck reports "Anchor's aweigh"


Also the Navy fight song.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchors_Aweigh

Damn. Busted on a technicality. Ha ha ha.

And here I thought it I knew everything about nautical terminology. An interesting correction. Thank you. It’s always good to learn.

And for the thread itself, reading through these, I’m pretty happy I have kick up rudders on the new boat. It was one of those must haves when I was looking at designs.

[StuM]

> how does one sail or motor to sea?

Only an absolute novice with no clue would even ask that question
ONE DOESN"T!!!


Anchor until you either:
fix things or

the wind changes (preferably both)
or you get assistance.


Anything else is dangerous stupidity.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Mattdewizard

I suppose if the rudder is jammed to one side then after pointing the boat into the wind one could heave to but with more forward momentum than would normally be done. Am I wrong?

YES, you are wrong.
On a lee shore with 20 knots of wind - you have no forward momentum. Hove to you will be blown steadily onto the shore.