Internet AIS

[Chotu]

The fact that Internet AIS hubs are way behind is truly just because they themselves suck. There is absolutely no reason that data should be out of date. The only time it should go out of date is if the boat loses its Internet connection. It very well could be real time and include speed, etc. They just didn’t put in the effort.

It’s unfortunate because I think a lot more people would use AIS if it were so simple as to just turn it on and transmit over TCP/IP. Buying specialized equipment and setting that all up is a barrier to entry.

I’m actually surprised no one has a real time internet AIS hub.

The most traffic is along the coast where there is plenty of signal even for people who don’t have Starlink

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Chotu

The fact that Internet AIS hubs are way behind is truly just because they themselves suck. There is absolutely no reason that data should be out of date. The only time it should go out of date is if the boat loses its Internet connection. It very well could be real time and include speed, etc. They just didn’t put in the effort.

It’s unfortunate because I think a lot more people would use AIS if it were so simple as to just turn it on and transmit over TCP/IP. Buying specialized equipment and setting that all up is a barrier to entry.

I’m actually surprised no one has a real time internet AIS hub.

The most traffic is along the coast where there is plenty of signal even for people who don’t have Starlink

I think a lot of it is receive stations. I'd like to supply data to the internet stations, but they only support Windows clients (and maybe Linux?). I'm not going to run a Windows machine on my boat 24/7, sucking down all that power, just to feed data. If they made an Android version, I would.


At my house, with my AIS on, I rarely show on MarineTraffic, because no one reliably receives my data. As a result, if you look around my harbor and click on various boats, you find some data is hours old, and some days old.


They do have a solution, but it's pay for. They can pick up the signal by satellite, and so it gives lots of coverage (but probably not real time -- I suspect it picks up only when their satellite passes within range).


Bottom line, I think a large part of their latency is a result of insufficient volunteer collection enthusiasts. I'd gladly provide them data if they made an android app.


Two follow on comments:
* I think you can buy, for under $20, a device (serial to ethernet hub, I think it is called), that can be configured to pump data from your ais to the servers. I recently discovered this, and am seriously considering it. I have issues with how to connect an ethernet port to my hot spot (either a dedicated hot spot or a phone, neither have an ethernet port). It'd be great if some IT guru would write a short how-to for this!


* Some local boats are showing latency under 5 minutes. This actually isn't really latency -- dynamic data can be transmitted as infrequently as every 3 minutes, and static data is every 6 minutes. So miss one or two packets and you can be a few/several minutes late. This is important to realize even with live AIS aboard, as Class B targets can move upwards of a mile between updates.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by ranger58sb

That means no or few AIS ground collection/relay stations throughout the whole area of competition?

Do you and all your opponents have the sort of AIS system that would be picked up by satellites and relayed to the aggregators?

We had Class B on our previous boat, and I don't remember ever seeing signs of satellite collection for that one. Class B+ in the current boat seems to result in satellite collection...

But I don't know if that's got to do with the AIS class or if satellite collection has just become more comprehensive over the years...

-Chris

My transmitter is an old (2012?) basic Class B, and I frequently find my boat on satellite collection. Of course, since the free satellite data is only "pleasure boat" with no details, the only way I know it is ME is by looking at where I am. But, yes, satellite pics up B boats, and if you pay you can get name, course, speed, etc for the satellite boats.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

I think a lot of it is receive stations. I'd like to supply data to the internet stations, but they only support Windows clients (and maybe Linux?). I'm not going to run a Windows machine on my boat 24/7, sucking down all that power, just to feed data. If they made an Android version, I would.


At my house, with my AIS on, I rarely show on MarineTraffic, because no one reliably receives my data. As a result, if you look around my harbor and click on various boats, you find some data is hours old, and some days old.


They do have a solution, but it's pay for. They can pick up the signal by satellite, and so it gives lots of coverage (but probably not real time -- I suspect it picks up only when their satellite passes within range).


Bottom line, I think a large part of their latency is a result of insufficient volunteer collection enthusiasts. I'd gladly provide them data if they made an android app.


Two follow on comments:
* I think you can buy, for under $20, a device (serial to ethernet hub, I think it is called), that can be configured to pump data from your ais to the servers. I recently discovered this, and am seriously considering it. I have issues with how to connect an ethernet port to my hot spot (either a dedicated hot spot or a phone, neither have an ethernet port). It'd be great if some IT guru would write a short how-to for this!


* Some local boats are showing latency under 5 minutes. This actually isn't really latency -- dynamic data can be transmitted as infrequently as every 3 minutes, and static data is every 6 minutes. So miss one or two packets and you can be a few/several minutes late. This is important to realize even with live AIS aboard, as Class B targets can move upwards of a mile between updates.

How incredibly antiquated. They only have a windows client? Lolol

In all honesty, it should be a hardware situation anyway.

You have accurate and to the second data on the NMEA network. Into the NMEA network, Plug in a WiFi enabled piece of hardware that knows your MMSI, pulls boat name, speed, direction, location from the network. Simply transmit the MMSI and all the very up to date information directly to the “AIS cloud server” for serving out to users.

It doesn’t have to be as bad as it is.

On the business side, who knows? I don’t see a revenue stream. Lol not unless you are charging users. I’m not sure ad support and revenue would be enough to support this. But technologically, that’s how it should work

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Chotu

How incredibly antiquated. They only have a windows client? Lolol

In all honesty, it should be a hardware situation anyway.

You have accurate and to the second data on the NMEA network. Into the NMEA network, Plug in a WiFi enabled piece of hardware that knows your MMSI, pulls boat name, speed, direction, location from the network. Simply transmit the MMSI and all the very up to date information directly to the “AIS cloud server” for serving out to users.

It doesn’t have to be as bad as it is.

On the business side, who knows? I don’t see a revenue stream. Lol not unless you are charging users. I’m not sure ad support and revenue would be enough to support this. But technologically, that’s how it should work

For uploading YOUR data to the servers, OnCourse will do that on your phone. You don't even need an MMSI -- they will give you a pseudo MMSI for internet tracking purposes. But it provides no data about your neighbors, which is key to making the system really robust.


The problem with your hardware solution is that the boat owner gets very little value from this purchase and installation -- his data becomes available to any vessel using internet AIS (meaning, probably no commercial traffic!), but doesn't even get a live AIS feed in return. Making it cost signficant $$ would be a hard sell.


But, as I mentioned in my earlier post, a hardware solution for area-wide AIS uploading appears to be already available. The first part, moving everyone's data (except, possibly, your own...LOL) from your AIS receiver into the ship's network (Ethernet) appears to be sub-$20. The hard part for me is how to connect an Ethernet plug to my ship's WiFi (ie, my phone) and then to the internet. Curious, if I connect my phone by WiFi to a WiFi router (which would also have Ethernet ports) and am simultaneously connected to cell data, is my router connected to the internet? That wouldn't be hard to do.

[requiem]

Originally Posted by Chotu

The fact that Internet AIS hubs are way behind is truly just because they themselves suck. There is absolutely no reason that data should be out of date. The only time it should go out of date is if the boat loses its Internet connection. It very well could be real time and include speed, etc. They just didn’t put in the effort.

I suspect it's more the model; someone using sites like VesselFinder or MarineTraffic is more likely to be interested in simply finding a boat, and even if the data is 40+ days old it would still be showing up on the map.

This is a very different use case from wanting to see a near real-time picture on the water. I believe AISHub provides such real-time data, or at least as close as you can get with AIS.

That wouldn't explain all the delays, of course: if I compare what I see via MarineTraffic and what I see if I enable Internet AIS on SEAiq the delay with MarineTraffic can be quite noticeable. (It's also possible they only provide the near real-time data to paying subscribers.)

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by Chotu

The fact that Internet AIS hubs are way behind is truly just because they themselves suck. There is absolutely no reason that data should be out of date. The only time it should go out of date is if the boat loses its Internet connection. It very well could be real time and include speed, etc. They just didn’t put in the effort.

It’s unfortunate because I think a lot more people would use AIS if it were so simple as to just turn it on and transmit over TCP/IP. Buying specialized equipment and setting that all up is a barrier to entry.

I’m actually surprised no one has a real time internet AIS hub.

The most traffic is along the coast where there is plenty of signal even for people who don’t have Starlink

Even live data direct from an AIS receiver on the boat isn't real time. They only update every couple seconds. Class B even less often. And if a signal is lost, it stays on the screen for several minutes.

Now, add into that having the signal sent over the internet to an aggregator. It's muxed with other feeds. There should be some buffering because feeds from different sources don't arrive at the same time. Then that stream is sent to a server listening on a TCP port, buffered again then streamed to the subscriber.

I think a delay of up to a minute is reasonable. Then add in how to handle the AIS that you only get one update every few minutes. (A class b only sends one update every 6 minutes if not moving). Do you have that disappear from the feed after 30 seconds, and then reappear 5 minutes later? Or do you hold it? And what about ships on the fringe of reception of the receiver? You receive one AIS packet from them. Do you discard it after 5 minutes? Or do you hold it longer?

[Chotu]

I should probably put more into my post, but asynchronous communication protocol on top of TCP/IP.

And of course it can’t be more real time than the actual boat is producing. That’s as good as local AIS is by definition for any use or purpose so that’s as good as you get with a very slight latency from boat to AIS server. Since that’s just what the boat is producing, you can’t expect anything better than that. And that’s just how AIS is going to work for everyone.

I will post something better when I have more time. But I just wanted to mention the asynchronous protocol is the way to go.

If you’ve ever used firebase or another noSQL database like that, you can see how these things work. Those things can ramp up to like 1 million users without any issues. And the actual moment you make a change in the app, the change is in the database as well. That’s all taken care of behind the scenes. Those data connections can also handle going in and out of service. You can drop the TCP/IP anytime and restart it and everything is just fine. It’s so real time it’s amazing

[CaptTom]

There always seems to be an element of magical thinking in these discussions.

AIS uses VHF (largely) line-of-sight communication. There are a very limited number of receiving stations that each of the web sites (like MarineTraffic) use. You (and anyone you're trying to track) are going to move in and out of range. Depending on where you are, shore stations may be few and far between. They're generally only at the mouth of the busiest harbors. A few miles out, and the targets drop off.

I don't see any business model which can support thousands or millions of new shore stations world-wide while providing the data free over the internet.

What does make sense is selling the data collected by satellite. Satellites aren't cheap, so there have to be a lot of users to justify the investment. Apparently there are, since these businesses seem to be successful.

So, you pay for satellite coverage or you use the data from your own local AIS receiver on your boat. Or both. Seems pretty simple to me.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

There always seems to be an element of magical thinking in these discussions.

AIS uses VHF (largely) line-of-sight communication. There are a very limited number of receiving stations that each of the web sites (like MarineTraffic) use. You (and anyone you're trying to track) are going to move in and out of range. Depending on where you are, shore stations may be few and far between. They're generally only at the mouth of the busiest harbors. A few miles out, and the targets drop off.

I don't see any business model which can support thousands or millions of new shore stations world-wide while providing the data free over the internet.

What does make sense is selling the data collected by satellite. Satellites aren't cheap, so there have to be a lot of users to justify the investment. Apparently there are, since these businesses seem to be successful.

So, you pay for satellite coverage or you use the data from your own local AIS receiver on your boat. Or both. Seems pretty simple to me.

The title of the thread is Internet AIS.

You are talking about standard AIS.

There is no reason in current times the AIS data has to go through VHF or the ground stations if the boat has a star link or other type of connectivity.

That’s like using LORAN for navigation. A lot like it.

No expensive satellites needed other than the star link ones the boat is already paying for. No need for ground stations other than the cell towers providing a data connection which is already being paid for.

However, still no real business model. It would basically be a charity

[hoolie]

I'm sorry but I think it is you who doesn't understand. The final delivery of data via Starlink or whatever is completely irrelevant. AIS is vhf based and if there's no reliable way of receiving it then only locals will see it. As Capt Tom says if there are no shore receiving stations your data is not available. Satellite data reception is almost non-existant for Class A so can't be relied on at all.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by hoolie

I'm sorry but I think it is you who doesn't understand. The final delivery of data via Starlink or whatever is completely irrelevant. AIS is vhf based and if there's no reliable way of receiving it then only locals will see it. As Capt Tom says if there are no shore receiving stations your data is not available. Satellite data reception is almost non-existant for Class A so can't be relied on at all.

No, it’s you who doesn’t understand.

What’s AIS? It’s an MMSI, your position, your boat name, your heading, your speed, etc. it’s a collection of real time data that’s also available on your NMEA network.

AIS doesn’t have to be VHF based. At all.

AIS data, these days, should be TCP/IP based, not VHF based.

How many people here have AIS? How many people here have Starlink or a cellular connection to the internet? I’m guessing every single person who has forked out cash for AIS also has a data connection.

Send AIS data to a cloud server over the data connection. Allow people who want to get AIS data from others in their area (or anywhere) to get that data from the server.

It’s as easy as that.

No special towers (use cellular towers everywhere), no special satellites (use Starlink satellites everywhere)

Special Towers, purpose built satellites…. All nonsense.

The infrastructure already exists to do it over TCP/IP. And everyone who has AIS has an Internet connection on their boat. I can guarantee that.

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by Chotu

And everyone who has AIS has an Internet connection on their boat. I can guarantee that.

You live in a very different world than I do. I like to sail in areas of no cell service ... And I'd be astonished if more than a tiny fraction of the boats with class-B AIS I see have any kind of satellite internet, I know I don't.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by Chotu

No, it’s you who doesn’t understand.

What’s AIS? It’s an MMSI, your position, your boat name, your heading, your speed, etc. it’s a collection of real time data that’s also available on your NMEA network.

AIS doesn’t have to be VHF based. At all.

AIS data, these days, should be TCP/IP based, not VHF based.

How many people here have AIS? How many people here have Starlink or a cellular connection to the internet? I’m guessing every single person who has forked out cash for AIS also has a data connection.

Send AIS data to a cloud server over the data connection. Allow people who want to get AIS data from others in their area (or anywhere) to get that data from the server.

It’s as easy as that.

No special towers (use cellular towers everywhere), no special satellites (use Starlink satellites everywhere)

Special Towers, purpose built satellites…. All nonsense.

The infrastructure already exists to do it over TCP/IP. And everyone who has AIS has an Internet connection on their boat. I can guarantee that.

A small fraction of people with AIS on board have an Internet connection on board. I can guarantee that.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by wholybee

A small fraction of people with AIS on board have an Internet connection on board. I can guarantee that.

My boat came with an AIS transponder and an IridiumGo. The AIS is working hard, but I've never activated the Iridium. Even if I did, the service is not well suited to an always on data stream. My primary internet service is my cell phone, which is hard enough when I have service (I forget to charge it, etc) and we have spent a lot of time outside of cell reception. Including half the time at my house...LOL.