OpenCPN SIMRAD/LOWRANCE Radar Overlay PlugIn

[Hakan]

Rick..
May be a discussion for another thread but in my view it's best for the rigging to be left upright and tightened. You may need another lashing to ground or to the support.
Håkan

[rgleason]

Radar Connection with Zeus Touch and possible Opencpn Computer
----------------

Questions

1. Does anyone know the Radar ethernet speed and if the capacity is fully utilized for Radar packets?
2. Would I need to separately activate the 12vdc yellow control wire to get the radar working for the computer?
3. Is there a preferred place to cut these devices in? Radar Cable or after the RI10 in the Ethernet cable.
4. Should I have a voltage regulator for the Router 12vdc power? - when charging?
5. Any additional pros and cons or details I should consider?

Options
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Use Simple RJ45 Coupler - No computer connection. $11
Can do this under the rear locker so I can remove the Waltz Backstay mount and radar in winter.

Cut The wire and duplicate the RJ45 Connection for the RI10 Connection shown below. Run the wire through a Cable Clam before making the RJ45.

Inline Ethernet CAT 5e RJ45 Coupler $6
http://www.amazon.com/Your-Cable-Sto...+coupler&psc=1

CableClam 0.83 - Blue Sea Systems Max Cable=0.44" Max Connnector Dia.=0.83" $20
https://www.bluesea.com/products/1002/CableClam_0.83in

Waterproof Plastic Electronic Project Box Enclosure Case 3.94 x 2.68 x 1.97 $5
Estone Waterproof Plastic Electronic Project Box Enclosure Case 3.94" x 2.68" x 1.97" - - Amazon.com

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Use a Splitter Combiner (Only one device can be on. Chartplotter or PC must be off.) $11
QualConnectTM 6in 2-Port RJ45 SplitterCombiner
Amazon.com: QualConnectTM 6in 2-Port RJ45 Splitter/Combiner Cable: Electronics
In place of the Rj45 Coupler, connect the RI10 to one side and the Computer to the other.
This will only work if one device is off (not the radar).

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Use a Network Switch. $18
In place of the RJ45 coupler in the first example, adding an ethernet cable from the PC.
TP-LINK 5-Port Gigabit Ethernet Desktop Switch, 10 100 1000 Mbps,IEEE 802.1p QoS, Up to 65% Power Saving (TL-SG105)
(I think it is 12vdc)

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Use old Linksys Wireless N Router WRT160N V2 (12vdc). Free
(increasingly required internet reboot)

Would I be able to connect the Instruments and send via wifi to Android?
Raymarine ST60 Instruments > gadgetpool.de Seatalk Link (+12vdc) > RS232 Nmea0183 > Ethernet

Wiring RS232 to Ethernet
http://wiki.mikrotik.com/images/3/3a...pinout.gif.png
Manual:System/Serial Console - MikroTik Wiki
-Would this be OK?

Router Questions
How would I setup the instrument data on the router?
How would I setup the radar data on the router?

The cutting of the Radar Cable looks quite easy, provided you have an ethernet RJ45 tool.
See image.

Thanks. Rick

[Hakan]

Rick..
re:"Questions

1. Does anyone know the Radar ethernet speed and if the capacity is fully utilized for Radar packets?
   >> Unless on wlan capacities if always enough. For wlan read merrimac's manual referred above.
2. Would I need to separately activate the 12vdc yellow control wire to get the radar working for the computer?
   >> Read your radar manual, "USA-only" connection. (Yellow to red +) If you don't have the manual search "3G-Broadband-Radar-Scanner_Installation_and_Setup_Manual.pdf"
3. Is there a preferred place to cut these devices in? Radar Cable or after the RI10 in the Ethernet cable.
   >> No, it's up to you as long as you can clamp a RJ45 to make male/female connection. Place it in a dry box or use a vulcanizing tape.
4. Should I have a voltage regulator for the Router 12vdc power? - when charging?
   >> No, see the manual again. (12-24 VDC)
5. Any additional pros and cons or details I should consider?
   >> Mount scanner front pointing head :

[muttnik]

Apologies in advance if I've misunderstood the question and am waffling about the wrong thing :-)

Originally Posted by rgleason

1. Does anyone know the Radar ethernet speed and if the capacity is fully utilized for Radar packets?

If you look back at earlier posts in this thread you'll see some measurements suggesting that fast ethernet (B&G/Raymarine all use 100Mb/s copper I think) still has most of its capacity left when running radar. The radar problem isn't about data rate. In addition to merrimac's documentation there's another discussion here.

Originally Posted by rgleason

Use old Linksys Wireless N Router WRT160N V2 (12vdc). Free
(increasingly required internet reboot)

Had you considered flashing your existing router with OpenWRT?

I'm no OpenWRT expert (I don't have an appropriate router) but I believe igmp snooping is implemented (so you should be able to keep radar off your wifi if you don't want it). There seemed to be a multicast-to-unicast patch floating around but not seen any documentation on that.

If you stick with the native firmware, check that it supports igmp snooping. If not it might not be a good choice for bridging wired and wireless on a boat with radar, although presumably you could turn off the wireless and use it as a switch..

Originally Posted by rgleason

Router Questions[/B]
How would I setup the instrument data on the router?
How would I setup the radar data on the router?

If you use the router as a switch with wifi disabled there's nothing to do to "set up radar". The radar we're interested in here is multicast. Dumb switches will simply throw such packets out of all ports to anything connected. Ones which support "IGMP snooping" listen for devices registering their interest in certain multicast groups and only send multicast for a given group out of a given port if something on that port has registered an interest. If you want to use the wifi you want to make sure the firmware supports igmp snooping and that it is enabled if you want to avoid swamping wifi even though nothing on it is using radar.

Regarding your wiring "rs 232 to ethernet"....you're barking up the wrong tree if I correctly understand what you're thinking of. The links you give are talking about using ethernet cable to transmit serial data. That's different from converting serial to ethernet. Ethernet uses those wires completely differently so you can't just plug a serial connection using ethernet cable into an ethernet switch and have it become "ethernet".

You can get cheap-ish eBay serial to ethernet converters (in the €20-50 range?) or if you tend to have the plotter on with the other instruments and the plotter will redistribute data over ethernet, use that? (Haven't read the Zeus manual so don't know if that's possible or if there are spare NMEA-0183 ports on yours).

Shouldn't need any special set-up for on router for the instruments although you'll probably want to enable DHCP if you don't have a DHCP server and want to hook everything else up.

[RobbieW]

Originally Posted by muttnik

...I'm no OpenWRT expert (I don't have an appropriate router) but I believe igmp snooping is implemented (so you should be able to keep radar off your wifi if you don't want it). There seemed to be a multicast-to-unicast patch floating around but not seen any documentation on that.

If you stick with the native firmware, check that it supports igmp snooping. If not it might not be a good choice for bridging wired and wireless on a boat with radar, although presumably you could turn off the wireless and use it as a switch...

I did some experiments early last year with the then current OpenWRT, BB release I believe. I couldnt get the radar broadcast to bridge over to the wireless segment. I havent tried with the latest OpenWRT, CC; may do that over the course of the year. Since getting an MFD in the cockpit, the need to have everything wireless has diminished as the laptop on the chart table is usually wired to my router.

I was interested in merrimac's suggestion that using a router that can simultaneously use both N and B/G, then using just N for the radar transmission may be viable. Not justified just on the data numbers but perhaps broadcast is treated differently because N has a much higher capacity. Anyway, since I'm thinking of replacing the RT-N16 I have onboard its given me something else to look at

[muttnik]

Originally Posted by RobbieW

Not justified just on the data numbers but perhaps broadcast is treated differently because N has a much higher capacity.

Access points will use one of the rates in the "basic set" which all stations will support and they tend to be set up to choose the lowest. As merrimac notes in his documentation, the lowest rate for n is 6.5Mb/s as opposed to 1Mb/s for b.

A quick Internet search reveals that OpenWRT allows you to explicitly exclude rates from the basic set and set the multicast rate although it seems that whether that works or not can be chipset or driver dependent. And obviously whether OpenWRT even works on your router :-)

[rgleason]

B&G RADAR_3G_4G_IG_988-10113-003_EN.pdf
Broadband 3G/4G™ Radar Installation Guide
Page 17 RI10 Connections

1.Connects the RI10 to a SimNet or NMEA2000 network to allow heading and position information to be sent to the scanner for MARPA calculations

Under the paragraph "Adding MARPA and / or Chart Overlay"
You must use a Radar Interface box to connect the heading data to the radar system - this is because MARPA calculations are done by the radar: ..

Therefore in my case with B&G Zeus Touch, the heading signal enters the RI10 from the Nmea2k bus and travels back to the radar via the ethernet connection.

I assume if the router is cut in between the Radar Interface RI10 and the Dome that the heading signal will still be sent back to the Radar for Marpa.

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Page 18 Power
With a separate 5amp breaker for the radar, the radar will just power up into standby mode when the radar switch is turned on.

The Broadband Radar requires +V DC to be applied , the yellow power on wire in order to operate. This can be achieved in one of three ways: 1. Common the red and yellow wire together, and connect to a fused switch. Radar will power on in standby when power is applied. When switch is off , radar will draw no power.

[NahanniV]

Originally Posted by rgleason

B&G RADAR_3G_4G_IG_988-10113-003_EN.pdf
Broadband 3G/4G™ Radar Installation Guide
Page 17 RI10 Connections
Therefore in my case with B&G Zeus Touch, the heading signal enters the RI10 from the Nmea2k bus and travels back to the radar via the ethernet connection.

I assume if the router is cut in between the Radar Interface RI10 and the Dome that the heading signal will still be sent back to the Radar for Marpa.

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Page 18 Power
With a separate 5amp breaker for the radar, the radar will just power up into standby mode when the radar switch is turned on.

I think that Douwe found that the "Ethernet" cable between the scanner and the RI10 box uses some of the unused wires (10-100) to send the heading data to the scanner (there is a posting on here somewhere).

So, I would not add anything between the scanner and the RI10 if you want MARPA to work.
Also the OpenCPN plugin performance is improved if the heading data is sent to the scanner.

Cheers,
JM.

[rgleason]

JM responded:

I think that Douwe found that the "Ethernet" cable between the scanner and the RI10 box uses some of the unused wires (10-100) to send the heading data to the scanner (there is a posting on here somewhere).

So, I would not add anything between the scanner and the RI10 if you want MARPA to work.
Also the OpenCPN plugin performance is improved if the heading data is sent to the scanner.

Thank you for the suggestion. Today at Defender's annual sale I had a chance to talk with B&G about the Simnet to Nmea2000 cable required from the RI10 to the Nmea2000 network. B&G advises that this cable is actually a receiving cable for necessary Marpa data (some type of target information) coming from the Scanner Dome. I guess this data goes onto the Nmea 2000 network and then makes its way to the Chartplotter where the calculations for Marpa is done. The scanner dome does no calculations they advise, and the data is going in one direction.

Additionally, I was encouraged not to cut the Radar Cable (due to the small wires) in order to remove the Waltz backstay mount and Radar Antenna, but to remove the connector at the back and unbolt the radar dome, then remove the Waltz mount separately. Or to disconnect the antenna cable at the RI10 interface and remove the entire run from inside the boat, or just pull out enough cable to set the Waltz mount somewhere on deck for the winter.

This would leave me with no connection for Opencpn use however. I did not discuss OpenCPN with them.

[rgleason]

Muttnik,
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2085939
This post is very helpful. Also Robie. Thank you.

Good link to understand the problem to.
Water and Electrickery: RADAR over wifi: Not always a pretty picture

Yes, I need to keep the radar mulitcast off the wifi as B&G does with the GoFree.
Yes, I would like to have the nmea data on the wifi, but I do not believe the B&G Zeus will send this data through its ethernet connections [Perhaps I am wrong about this], which are used to connect various instruments and feed data to the chartplotter, with the exception of the GoFree wifi unit which simply extends the Chartplotter to have wifi -I have been told by B&G today that the Zeus Touch chartplotter must be "on" in order to have data on the Nmea2000 bus and to get wifi Instrument Data. (By the way, the GoFree unit basically uses an ethernet extension to create a chartplotter with wifi. The GoFree has NO connection to the Nmea2000 network/bus.)

This is why I think the Vesper XB-8000 might be a better choice for AIS & Wifi, because it does connect to the Nmea2000 bus and thus I can shut down the ZeusTouch and still get instrument data via wifi to a tablet. They have Android and Ipad apps for AIS and data and Android Opencpn could also use the instrument data.

What I would be giving up is being able to control the Zeus Touch from my Android Tablet because that requires a B&G app + GoFree Wifi.

However the disadvantage with using GoFree wifi is that in order to get the instrument data on wifi for use with Android OpenCPN, requires the Zeus Touch to be turned on too! -- Reducing battery life.

I think I might not try for wifi instrument data this year, and possibly not connect OpenCPN onto the radar at first. Just get the system running, then modify for OpenCPN, when I have looked into the details further.

[rgleason]

Linksys WRT160N v2 is not supported by DD-WRT. Later versions of DD-WRT would probably have igmp snooping support. Linksys WRT160N v1,1.1 and 3.0 are supported.

I checked the OpenWRT website and WRT160N v2 had issues, and it appeared v3 was better. Its an old router. Maybe I should buy for the purpose.

[rgleason]

Is "Multicast Filtering" possibly the same as "IGMP Snooping Enable"?
IGMP= Internet Group Management Protocol (IGMP) network traffic.

Linksys Official Support - Enabling Filter Multicast on a Linksys router
Looks to me like checking "Multicast Filtering" prevents multicast which is not what IGMP does.

[rgleason]

What Is the Linksys Filter Multicast? | Chron.com

Multicasting allows networked devices to send data to a group of machines without having to make multiple copies of that data...allows for efficient communication ..when compared to standard broadcast transmissions. However, multicasting can be used to attack a network by flooding it with data, some Linksys routers give you the option of turning the Filter Multicast feature off.

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/lanwa...network-part-2
-Unmanaged switches by default flood multicast out to all ports.\
-Routers by default, do not forward multicasts. This means a router that doesn't support or isn't configured for multicast traffic will drop the multicast packets. [Linksys WRT160N v2 has multicast enabled by default]
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/lanwa...network-part-3

How do I find out if it has IGMP Snooping? Maybe its just a gateway router or perhaps this whole thing is a red herring.

[rgleason]

See http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1665656

..RI-10 interface box. This box connects to the radar with a RJ-45 connector and to the official display with a Simrad proprietary ethernet connector. There is also a Simnet connector for a NMEA2000 connection. The box will accept heading info from the NMEA2000 and pass it to the radar for Marpa and chart overlay.

Today I was advised that it is actually a signal, regarding needed Marpa information, coming from the Radar, that gets to the Chartplotter where the actual Marpa calculations are done. The radar does no calculations I was told.

So I may have had it wrong about getting to the Nmea2000 network, perhaps it goes to the chartplotter via the Ethernet, the two wires Douwe wrote about?

[muttnik]

Apologies for my ignorance of the additional wires for heading in my previous posts.

Originally Posted by rgleason

Is "Multicast Filtering" possibly the same as "IGMP Snooping Enable"?

I don't think so. The technical article you linked to is a mess of double negatives. I think this option is one of two things: disabling propagation of multicast completely or disabling of multicast from the WAN to LAN sides. Probably the latter as it's under the "Internet filtering" tab.

Originally Posted by rgleason

Multicasting and the Small Network, Part 2 - SmallNetBuilder

Some good explanations. Important thing to remember is that a device like the WRT160N is a "router" between LAN and WAN and a "switch" between LAN ethernet ports. It's probably a "bridge" between ethernet and wifi (different datalink but same IP network) which for our igmp snooping purposes here makes that part behave like a switch.

A mail to linksys support or experimentation with tcpdump would be the best way to be sure of how the WRT160N's native firmware treats internal multicast but my guess would be it acts as an unmanaged switch in the manner your link suggests.